knife edging

[fieromx3]

ok i am buildin a race street/strip engine and am tryin to make as much power as possible. is knife edging the stock kl-03 crank worth the money? or would i be wasting time? im gettin the crank balanced and machined so i figured while im doin that i would get it knife edged. also is there anything else i can do to it to get more reliabilty or power from it my brother was sayin somethin bout gettin the holes chamfered for better oiling to bearings?

[proboner]

no its not worth the money... and crank oil holes shoudl always be chamfered, they come like that stock

[95PGTTech]

it is worth it in my opinion

[proboner]

has anyone even done it on a pgt? itll make an almost negligable difference in power... if anything it will only help in not frothing the oil as much. maybe its better suited for the pipe dream 10k rpm engine ;)

[fieromx3]

so i should also chamfer the holes or they do come like that stock so in other words i dont need to? i am actually aiming for that 9-10,000 rpm range but doin it safely

[95PGTTech]

has anyone even done it on a pgt? itll make an almost negligable difference in power... if anything it will only help in not frothing the oil as much. maybe its better suited for the pipe dream 10k rpm engine ;)

absolutely correct.

the reason I listed it as "worth it", is because I am a big fan of reducing drivetrain losses. nothing is better than free power

[proboner]

haha well technically its pretty far from free

[95PGTTech]

free in terms of you get more power without adding stress to the motor.

[veltpak6]

complete waste of time/money in my opinion. the crank's counterweights are pretty streamlined. if youre doing it for weight, go flywheel instead.

[proboner]

but extremly expensive in terms of cost/benefit

[95PGTTech]

but extremly expensive in terms of cost/benefit

correct. most value their mods by hp gain/dollar, I value them at hp gain/increased motor stress.

[Jarod7920]

worth it end of story, dont be the typical PGT owner and be cheap, go big or go home

[proboner]

well if you really are going to 9-10k then go for it... but it seems to me that anyone building an engine of that nature shouldnt be asking questions like this in the first place. what are your plans for modifications to this engine?

[95PGTTech]

but it seems to me that anyone building an engine of that nature shouldnt be asking questions like this in the first place

in every single thread where people ask me about the motors/heads/trans's I've built for various pters, I always have to ask this question, I just can't figure out a way to nicely do it.

many, "what do I have to do to my head to rev to 10k". I'll be nice and answer, but if you ask that question, I seriously doubt you know how to build a head in the first place

[nevin94 PGT]

I'd get the crank micropolished while you're at it, if you plan on going to all this trouble anyway.

And yes, knife edging is worth it in the fact that it "frees up" power, so to speak, but the cost certainly isn't small...

[ouch1011]

Building a 9-10k RPM KL that is RELIABLE is not going to be cheap either, since to make it truely reliable, you would need to recreate the oil pump, change out pretty much the entire valvetrain (except the valves) and create your own intake manifold.

If you consider the entire cost of this project if he sees it through, knife edging the crank is not a bad idea.

[95PGTTech]

Building a 9-10k RPM KL that is RELIABLE is not going to be cheap either

I doubt it's possible. there is so much stress on the motor at that point that I think the term reliable is out of the question. at those rpm rates, I would be getting ready to rebuild the motor on a bi-monthly basis, and forget about using it as your daily driver.

[showngo]

both saying its worth-it or reliable is opinionated lol
if you havnt had it done then you cant say its not worth it and that its pointless. in my oppinion its worth it. I have it done, just the motors not assembled yet its still on a stand waiting for cams from interprep lol. but i say its worth it cause it will give you more power, possibly more reliabilty, faster revs(not higher faster), and less oil resistance. Like someone said, i would have it microhoned as well or at the very least performance coated.
im not sure how likly 10k is it depends on your drive to do what you want. Im shootin for 9k in my race engine but ive redone the valvetrain, designed an IM, heavy port work ect ect ect. Lots of money and time, unless you do everything yourself then its less money and more time lol. and not to mention its not a daily driver, but it is possible. I may even be able to rev to 10k, but im not ganna. lol too much time and money. Plus after certain rpms the word reliability goes from 100,000 miles to 3 or 4 races. lol and after certain mods things that are reliable on the track arnt on the street and visversa. lol if this all sounds like rambling its because i havnt slept lol
basically some how the jist of all this is
i think its worth it lol

[95PGTTech]

PUNCTUATION :mad:

I can't read your post, I thnk I get the gist

[showngo]

sorry like i said no sleep lolive been up since yesterday morning lol
i edited the best i could, given the circumstances, just now though.

[lakersfan1]

i edited the best i could, given the circumstances, just now though.

Would those 'circumstances' be that you attended elementary school in Alabama?

[veltpak6]

I doubt it's possible. there is so much stress on the motor at that point that I think the term reliable is out of the question. at those rpm rates, I would be getting ready to rebuild the motor on a bi-monthly basis, and forget about using it as your daily driver.


but thats the entire point of this thread! about how the factory given bottom end geometry is far more suitable for extremely high-RPMs than any honda engine ever made (i mean production engine!! before one guy starts going on about honda race engines) ! I think the stock bottom end is very reliable at high RPMs provided no other accessories fail (ie oil pumps, valvetrain etc)

[95PGTTech]

sorry like i said no sleep lolive been up since yesterday morning lol
i edited the best i could, given the circumstances, just now though.

:thanks:

but thats the entire point of this thread! about how the factory given bottom end geometry is far more suitable for extremely high-RPMs than any honda engine ever made (i mean production engine!! before one guy starts going on about honda race engines) ! I think the stock bottom end is very reliable at high RPMs provided no other accessories fail (ie oil pumps, valvetrain etc)

yes, as a factory motor it's good. but when you start revving it through the roof like that, you're just asking for something to go kaboom. the motor is suited to rev high, but that in no way prevents the fact that higher revs = disproportionately higher motor stress (block, rods).

if you want to rev to 9 or 10 grand, you need a fully built motor, period. whether you're going turbo, n/a, supercharger, nitrous, or any combination of the aforementioned. you're not only spinning the valvetrain to 4.5-5 grand, you're spinning the bottom end to 9 or 10. stock rods no likey. very no likey.

that being said, look at the rods and piston combos out now, saying they will hold 400hp. that number is based on calculated stress. they put the numbers into their computer about what the parts can handle, and what kind of power output that would take to get to that stress level, to come up with the 400whp number. but that's stock rev limit. you rev to 9 or 10 grand, and those rods are probably only good to 325 whp, because the higher revs are stressing the parts that much more up there.

simply put...9-10000 rpm + daily driver = :badidea:

you want more revs? take your valve covers off, drop some cams in, change your valve stems and HLAs, and put in some interprep springs. $500 well spent. take it to 8000 safely.

[proboner]

as pointed out by veltpak in his other post, the honda k20 engine at redline has similar piston speeds to the pgt at 10,000. thats a stock production redline, with stock production reliability. now obviously that doesnt mean we can rev that high without second thought to how our engine will take it, but with necessary upgrades the physicis of it is on our side. by no means am i saying this kid will be the one to do it, but theres no reason to deter anyone from trying.

[95PGTTech]

but in the bottom end, it is not just pistons that are going round and round. the two biggest concerns of engine load are the connecting rods and the block itself, the pistons see very very little increased demand on them. the information about piston speeds is largely irrelevant.

our connecting rods are our weakpoint to begin with.

[fieromx3]

ok well after readin all that 9-10 doesnt look in reach for me but im still tryin to make as much power as possible. i was goin to get ALL ferrea valve train and switch to soild lifters and get custom ground colt cams for them. and i have a mx-3 with a kl-de not a pgt. ill get a price on the knife edging and if its really costly im not gonna do it ans i was lookin at my crank and it dont look like there is barely anything to grind off i dont think itd be much of power gain but im still gonna do all that other stuff. but 8 is still a possibility.

[proboner]

of course piston speeds come into play, what do you think is pullin so hard on the rods. the largest load the rods will see in terms of revs are the tensile load on the exhaust stroke. the only thing putting stress on the rods at that point are the weight of the pistons.

[showngo]

more specifically the weak point is the rod bolts then the rods are just after that. custom pistons and rods with arp rod bolt would solve that

[95PGTTech]

of course piston speeds come into play, what do you think is pullin so hard on the rods. the largest load the rods will see in terms of revs are the tensile load on the exhaust stroke. the only thing putting stress on the rods at that point are the weight of the pistons.

the crank is what is pulling so hard on the rods. as stated one below you, the rod bolts are the biggest problem with the rod

[proboner]

ok upgrade to arp rod bolts and stronger rods... even though as stated in the other post the guy from PRM is running a stock shortblock and only having oil pump problems. my point is that saying that its going to require a bi monthly rebuild or isnt attainable isnt correct. i agree its not as streetable of an option, and not many people on here possess the know how to achieve such a goal. but once the groundwork has been laid, all it will take is some time and money. and lets all be honest, a 10,000rpm pgt would be ****ing hawt!

[showngo]

yea it is definatly possible. but you have to replace the rods to upgrade the rod bolts or have them drilled and tapped because theres no replacment for just the bolts. but in 2 of my engines the rod bolts failed around 8k lol so that is the first to go. dont even think about riving that high with out all that done and the valve train i really like interprep but ferra is cool to just pricey.

[95PGTTech]

ok upgrade to arp rod bolts and stronger rods... even though as stated in the other post the guy from PRM is running a stock shortblock and only having oil pump problems. my point is that saying that its going to require a bi monthly rebuild or isnt attainable isnt correct. i agree its not as streetable of an option, and not many people on here possess the know how to achieve such a goal. but once the groundwork has been laid, all it will take is some time and money. and lets all be honest, a 10,000rpm pgt would be ****ing hawt!

yes, he is, on a TRACK CAR.

and I was assuming from this thread that the point was to be reliable. considering there are less than 500 track miles on the PRM motor, that's not really a good reliability test IMO.

I was also assuming that anyone who wanted to take a PGT to 10k was doing so in an effort to boost. :shrug:

[fieromx3]

im getting pauter rods and on their website they say ''rolled thread racing rod bolts (standard.) '' r these bolts stock or are they an upgraded high strenth bolt?

[95PGTTech]

upgraded. "standard" means that they have american thread sizes on them, not metric.

[proboner]

yes, he is, on a TRACK CAR.

and I was assuming from this thread that the point was to be reliable. considering there are less than 500 track miles on the PRM motor, that's not really a good reliability test IMO.

I was also assuming that anyone who wanted to take a PGT to 10k was doing so in an effort to boost. :shrug:

500 miles on a track car! sounds pretty reliable to me... i mean if it is truely just a track car and has around 500 miles its safe to assume that at least 450 of those miles were spent over our stock redline. shucks, i doubt i have anywhere near that many miles, over 5000 rpm on my engine.

[95PGTTech]

500 miles on a track car! sounds pretty reliable to me... i mean if it is truely just a track car and has around 500 miles its safe to assume that at least 450 of those miles were spent over our stock redline. shucks, i doubt i have anywhere near that many miles, over 5000 rpm on my engine.

I made a pure guess, I really doubt there are more than 50 miles on that motor, that would mean 200 passes. since I don't know exactly, I ballparked way high.

even if you did make this motor streetable, you'd get your socks knocked off by the first 2nd gen turbo that you met up with. :shrug:

[Frozen Air]

correct. most value their mods by hp gain/dollar, I value them at hp gain/increased motor stress.

I want to shake ur hand for that comment :salute:

[proboner]

I made a pure guess, I really doubt there are more than 50 miles on that motor, that would mean 200 passes. since I don't know exactly, I ballparked way high.

even if you did make this motor streetable, you'd get your socks knocked off by the first 2nd gen turbo that you met up with. :shrug:

Oh, I completely agree, a turbo probe probably would blow away a N/A pgt given an equal investment, but everyone's boat floats differently! But thats not the point, I just don't want people thinking that a high revving high hp kl is out of the question and unreliable...you've just gotta keep to the old saying...fast, reliable, cheap- pick two! As I've said before, even turbocharging was unreliable, and if you did it prepare to rebuild your engine...but things are a little different now, arent they?

p.s. my girlfriend went thru and edited this thing for punctuation... look how pretty it is :lol:

[showngo]

p.s. my girlfriend went thru and edited this thing for punctuation... look how pretty it is :lol:
i should try that lol