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  • Engine Build/Rebuild. Let's work together.

    I'd really like to se something we can throw in the archive that is well thought out and can be a basic guide to those who would like to build their motors (rebuild for reliability, strength, power, etc... it all starts pretty much the same). Obviously each application will vary and everyone who builds their motor will tweak it a bit, but a general guidline with prices so people can basically option their rebuild to their budget and also know what they are getting.

    With that said I did about 3 minutes worth of searching, and quite a bit of time typing and have a start. First of all, I don't see rebuilds as something you should go cheap on, with that said I do think you should shop around. Here's a quick list of what I found quickly that I know would be needed (somewhat organized).

    Start with a Flatlander Complete Rebuild Kit.
    $459.00 Listed on the site. Contains head gasket, valve cover gaskets, viton valve stem seals, and all other required sealing gaskets, strips and plugs, oil pan gasket where applicable timing gasket, rear main seal, set of pistons and rings, main bearings, rod bearings, thrust washers, timing belt, and a set of expansion plugs. Pistons & Rings:
    Available in Std., .020 over, .040 over. Bearings: Std., 10, 20, 30.

    Next to do the job right you need a new water pump.
    $62.00 at any autoparts store (90% of the cars on this board have the 32mm pulley I believe).

    Along with that you should replace the Timing Belt Tensioner Arm.
    $140 or $160 I believe. Available at Mazda, do not get this from anywhere else the quality is not the same.

    Since our cars usually die from oil starvation, I would go ahead and spring for a new Oil Pump.
    $90 to $115 and available from Flatlander or Autoparts Stores. $199 for the highflow. I've heard that all are the same, you decide. Also, while you are doing your pump, find a 3mm washer to shim your pump. This increases pressure.

    If you would like to replace your valves (12 intake and 12 exhaust).
    $8.00 and $9.00 respectively ($204.00 total) from flatlander (very nice place btw) .

    Also available are our HLA's. They have the standard KL size 30mm HLA's, I do not see any of the slightly larger type used on ZE heads. This may be a good idea if you don't like the tapping, though Silver_Bullit recently posted a way to clean/refresh HLA's.
    $13.00 each ($312 total).

    That makes up most of the 'parts' for a mostly stock rebuild.

    For a more performance oriented engine you really should look at each major component and see what you can do with it to improve it. I'll start with the things that need the least/have the least improvment possible.

    Crank: Our factory crank is great. Polish it, for basically no payout. Knife-edgeing is basically worthless unless you're rebuilding your engine every few 1/4 passes. Basically leave the crank alone. It's good, strong and basically will never hold you back.

    Heads: Nobody has really flowbenched our heads to find where the real performance gains can be had. Removing casting marks, smoothing things out and basically cleaning them up is always a good thing (well, unless you screw up flow). Decking the heads is possible as our engines are non-interferance. I believe .055" is the maximum the heads can be decked before the engine becomes interferance (Mazda Comp). .035" will require you to adjust your timing. Stem seals are included in the Flatlander kit.

    ZE Heads are a good possible upgrade. With ZE Heads your HLA's will not all be the same side (iirc intake are larger, exhaust are the same 30mm). Again, until someone puts them on a flow bench I can't say where to remove material other than clean up the basic things.

    I have not priced out headwork myself, but I think for a rebuilt head with a valvejob, and general clean up work I think it is about $250-350???

    Cams: mikeseli is basically cam literate. He offers multiple grinds for specific applications (na; FI, and n20) often available in the BB forum for $375-425 his also do not require shims. Other companies do it, but I'm not sure of their pricing (someone want to post?)

    Valve Springs: Um, I'm not this good but I know that some people have upgraded theirs. I don't know to what rate or any of that junk... someone post it in.
    Pricing??

    Valves: Larger valves aren't something that many people have explored and I don't know how much room there is (again, I'm not the smartest guy here, just trying to get something together). Stronger valves, shotpeened valves, polished valves, any of the above.
    Pricing??
    -Chris C.
    Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD

  • #2
    Connecting Rods: Many options with rods. Millenia rods are reportedly 40% stronger. Cryotreatment or shotpeening are possible for hardening as well. Forged rods are an option, however 90% of this board will never need forged rods. We simply do not build our engines to this point.
    Pricing ???

    Pistons: Weisco has the blueprints for some nice 8.7:1 Forced Induction Pistons (utilize Millenia Rods). Paeco and others make custom higher/lower compression pistons.
    Pricing starts near $700/set of 6.

    Piston Rings: Chrome-moly, Gapless, etc. I don't know much and don't have pricing.

    Block: ToastiER knows where to get copper head gaskets and I believe block guards. Neither of those are really needed outside forced induction. Boring the block is very possible. I think .080" is possible w/o resleeving. Resleeving requires a VERY experianced machine shop. The more you overbore, you get closer to having to re-do the upper girdle and/or add a block guard. Problem with the girdle/guard is that you have to have them welded into place, then have the block re-bored/honed. Changes can be made to the oil passageways, specifically the #6. Boring/Honing costs ~$300-$350 sometimes more for larger bores, and significantly more if you're resleeving/block guarding.

    Um... that's all I'm prepared to type at this point. I'd REALLY love for like 10 or so smart people to come in here and add/subtract/restate things and make this something that in the end we would have a very nice list of options and guidlines that we could point people to.

    That said, get to work.
    -Chris C.
    Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD

    Comment


    • #3
      nice post, Chris.
      Hope this post gets a lot of useful info, and a lot of intelligent responses. I made the only unintelligent one......

      Comment


      • #4
        I actually just tore down a new ZE to begin rebuilding it.

        I'm getting that rebuild kit you mentioned at the top of your post, minus the new pistons, but getting new rings and everything else.

        The shop I dropped my stuff off yesterday at (block halves, pistons and rods, heads, crank) is working on them for me. They're going to shot-peen the rods ($3/rod), mill the heads true, boil them to clean them, put new valve guides and seals in, straighten/inspect/polish the crank, new freeze plugs in the block, re-ring the pistons for me. The rest of the work (re-assembly, smoothing out cast marks inside intake manifold, etc) will be done by myself, which saves a ton of money. It's a side project, the engine that's in my GT now still runs like a top and in no need of replacement what so ever, and has 120k miles on it.


        The ZE will get new:

        Oil Pump ($115)
        Water Pump ($60)
        Flatlander kit ($459 minus price of pistons)
        Head bolts ($70)
        Tensioner Arm ($152)
        re-hone of block and all misc. head work, crank work, etc from shop that has parts, Price still yet unknown, waiting to hear if heads pressure tested ok and are going to be cleaned and prepped ($???)
        Pacesetter headers ($276)
        Fidanza flywheel ($250)
        _______________________

        that's about $1600 assuming the shop work on the heads/etc. will be about $400. Not bad to have a brand new engine again.


        Good thread
        2007 Audi RS4
        Past: '05 Audi S4, '88 626 turbo, '93 red PGT, '94 white PGT, '95 Purple PGT, '95 Red PGT, '00 MGT, '07 Mazdaspeed3
        The mom's car: White on black GTS, 5 speed, tint.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Engine Build/Rebuild. Let's work together.

          Originally posted by Probe 2C

          Crank: Our factory crank is great. Polish it, for basically no payout. Knife-edgeing is basically worthless unless you're rebuilding your engine every few 1/4 passes. Basically leave the crank alone. It's good, strong and basically will never hold you back.
          For strenght, our crankshaft can't really be beaten. However, it's oil flow sucks bigtime. It isn't bored/drilled striaght through, it is a taper bore, so #6 rod bearing is at teh smallest end of the crank, and thus gets the least amount of oil.

          Also, on a differnt note. Oil is IMO one of the biggest problems in these engines with failure. The oiling system just plain sucks @ss. If/when I do build and engine for the PGT, it will be getting an electric oil pump and the stocker is going away. And regarding the heads, if somebody wanted to (again IMO) they could have the oil ports opened up that lead to the HLA's. These ports go from the drill holes (throught the entire head, prolly 1/4" hole) to the HLA bores. These holes are no larger that 1/16" or so. If somebody opened them up to 1/8" that would be a big improvment IMO. Think about it, more oil in the HLA when ther is no pressure on it, the farther the valve will open when the cam turns and puts pressure on it. It will also open sooner and faster.

          The above is prettymuch strictly for an all out performance rebuild.



          ~Aaron'

          I talked for a while again yesterday with Alistair Oag from Interprep on the phone, specifically, about the oil starvation problem. Here's what he told me -

          The #1 cylinder is oil by the front main journal.

          #2 and #3 are oiled by another main journal.

          #4 and #5 are oiled by the next main journal

          #6 is oiled by the end main journal. But, the problem with #6 is that the oil passageway through the crank is too small, and eventhough one main journal is only oiling one rod bearing unlike the other mains which oil two, the oil pressure down at that end of the crank is significantly lower than the 1st few cydliners. The oil ports on the crank are indeed taper-bored sort of like a funnel to allow a more even pressure across the crank, but the hole on the end main is simply too small. They raced an MX6 with stock rods and pistons, only modification being "aspirating the crank" (drilling out the oil ports) and he said for "24 hours, the car ran the race always from 5k rpm up to 7800, on STOCK internals!" their only other mods being head, cam, intake manifold, and header work, the car made about 260 hp n/a he said. With the high flow pump, and shimming the pump as well to raise the pressure, they haven't had a problem yet letting the engine rev up to 8200 rpm.


          So after he told me that, I actually feel better about these engines. After hearing so many people having the same exact problem with the #6 rod ceazing on the crank, including my ZE which did it, I was very paranoid and had begun to never really rev or drive my car hard.
          From thsi thread:
          http://www.probetalk.com/forums/show...did=1701035237
          ~Aaron~
          1993 Silver PGT MTX ~~R.I.P~5/7/14

          Comment


          • #6
            This is what we need.

            I've lately been looking around at machine shops and other custom auto places to find a place that can do the work I only dream about.

            Honestly ive found out of the 20 places in town that i have been too most send everything off to be done else where and they only assemble parts and then I thought about it and realized what can I do to make more power n/a or beef up....for another application.

            What really needs to be discussed are the limits of this engine.

            Max over bore

            Heads and why in hell havent a F/I guy not had the heads looked into yet. Damn so many with turbo set ups worth more than my car and no data on what we can do to improve some flow.

            cant really think of anything else as I am so tired, but honestly I dont think most shops know of to tune up this engine. I talked some fantasy with some of the owners and realize all i would get is a simple rebuild of my engine with no power gain to show for it other than a less tired kl 03....what i want is a nice kl that n/a can keep up with my brothers soon to be f2t beast.

            just do add something constructive

            Valve Springs: These do not need upgraded unless you are rev'in high enough to experiance valve float.

            You didnt mention performance coatings of any sort...ceramic coatings or dry film....

            Ceramic will reduce losses to heat if you coat piston tops and combustion areas on the heads

            Dry film can be put on bearings, valves and cams to reduce frictional losses.

            Questions:

            You mentioned before removing the FGS how and why?

            What does over sized bearings do for you?

            How would the set up on an electic oil pump work? Its inside the oil pan, how do you get it power?
            ¡Renewed Vigor!

            Comment


            • #7
              i would like to know what kind of rings come with the rebuild kit, and what are they made from.

              i have been told that our stock piston rings are steel which make for a very good ring, and they are very flexible where if you bend them, they will come right back to their regular position, and of course being steel, they don't really mess up the cylinder wall much at all, that is why when you see people tear their 2.5's down, you can still see the hatch marks.

              now in the rebuild kit, are the rings basically iron? meaning not the best springy material, and would wear down the cylinders quicker?

              was just wondering if anyone had info on that, and where you can find the cheapest piston rings that are just like the stock ones, which i think are superior to any rebuild ones (unless the engine kit comes with ones just like the stock rings)
              1996 Boysenberry Probe GT MTXtreme
              2014 Fusion SE MTXtreme
              2005 Mountaineer Premier

              Comment


              • #8
                On my engine I only disassembled the heads to port and polish them. It had 100.000 miles at the time and a failed water pump caused it to overheat. It was very cheap to buy as a project engine :-)

                New water pump, valve stem seals, head gaskets. That's it. It runs like a champ.

                I ported the heads using some good sense and it turns out to work very well. since the heads were shaved 0.5 mm, new idler timing belt pulleys were fabricated to keep the timing in place.
                Reground cams are a must for anyone serious about performance. Mikeseli has some good cams available.


                Did 10 laps at a racetrack last weekend, revving it at the redline all the time. There was an Integra TypeR which had a rod bearing failure. Not enough oil in the engine probably (around MIN sign on the stick). See even Hondas can seize their engines.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Re: Engine Build/Rebuild. Let's work together.

                  Originally posted by Silver_Bullit


                  Also, on a differnt note. Oil is IMO one of the biggest problems in these engines with failure. The oiling system just plain sucks @ss. If/when I do build and engine for the PGT, it will be getting an electric oil pump and the stocker is going away.



                  From thsi thread:
                  http://www.probetalk.com/forums/show...did=1701035237
                  Electric oil pump?? What you probably want is a belt driven oil pump similar to the ones used on a dry sump oiling system.
                  Probe is now gone!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I had hoped for more responses :-/
                    -Chris C.
                    Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Don't worry some more will respond

                      Ill keep this beotch bumped Because I want to hear some ideas.

                      Really my choices right now are take my engine to abacus racing and tell them i want to go fast or do the same at interprep.

                      I want to have a nice laundry list of things i want done by what companies so i can blow away some people on this board some day

                      Why cant everyone have hopes like that for thier probe?
                      ¡Renewed Vigor!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This is a great thread. More responses will come as the people who it actually applies to get further into their rebuild projects. The oil system info is probably some of the best we've compiled yet.

                        Does anyone have any direct experience with having heads rebuilt/ported/etc? I have an extra set of KL31 heads that I intend to use for this build. I may be able to have them flow-tested at the same time. Any names or such who I should talk to? I'd like to keep the price at least sane, but I'm not looking for Cheapy Joe's Port-O-Rama... Alistar probably has the most experience, but I don't think I'm rich enough to have him do it...


                        RE: Replacement pistons: CorkSport can get factory overbore KL31 pistons for roughly $45 each. They'll come with OEM rings. That's a major piece of the engine rebuild I'm planning.


                        RE: KL31 heads and HLA's: Remember that the 2.5L Millenia engine used KL31 heads in the North American car. Intake HLA's will be available from a Mazda dealer and probably also from Flatlander. I would also suspect that anyone having heads professionally rebuilt and worked could have new valves, springs, and RETAINERS sourced by the shop doing the prep work. After popping my ZE due to a split intake valve spring retainer, that's a serious consideration for me. Writing the check for titanium pieces isn't really out of the question for me.


                        RE: head shaving and timing: What actually needs to be adjusted when the heads are resurfaced? Is it just the tensioning system? I can't see how putting the heads .035" closer to the crank would change anything in the actual cam timing. There is still a finite number of teeth on both the crank pulley and the cam pulley. I could see that if the tensioning system doesn't have enough range, that it would need some modification. What is the safe limit for the heads before this needs done? Is that the .035" number quoted before?

                        RE: Oling modifications: Who has experimented (on this board) with enlarging the crank's and heads' oil passages? What successes and methods did you experience and use? This is probably something any one of us who is taking the time to fully build a ground-up engine should look into, even if only to preserve our investments.



                        This thread should be sticky.
                        Greg Martin
                        2009 BMW 328i
                        2017 BMW X3
                        1990 Probe LX

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yea, I probably should have made this sticky Sometimes I forget about that.

                          That's a great price for KL31 Pistons w/ rings

                          RE: KL31 HLA's. On flatlander's site they list (for the 2.5L Millena) only having the 30mm HLA's available... that's the same size they list for our engine. Perhaps a call or email to them and we could locate the larger (did I read once that it's 33mm?) intake HLA.

                          Retainers: I had hoped they would have been included in one of the kits from flatlander, but I do not think they are. Definately something I agree that should be looked at. Perhaps even custom PRD Stainless retainers

                          The number for shaving the head (.035") is supposedly what requires an adjustment to the timing tension system while the .055" makes the car an interferance engine. It seems small to me also, however when you look at the geometry of it, it is .035" shorter from the crank to the front cam sprocket, .035" shorter from the front cam sprocket to the tensioner, .035" shorter from the tensioner to the rear cam sprocket, and .035" shorter from the rear cam sprocket to the crank again. That's a total of over 1/8". That 1/8" accounts for at least 1 tooth of the timing belt. I'm not sure if a 1/8" shorter timing belt could be sourced, or how to modify the tensioner to accomodate the size.

                          Perhaps simply by keeping the amount shaven from the head to .025" for most applications?

                          For oiling... I know Joe Kamman's engine has modification to the oiling system. Though I would still think that Alistair probably has the best answer to it.

                          I'd love to get inside his head and take gobs of knowledge.
                          -Chris C.
                          Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've got a whole bucket with the 24 HLA's from those KL31 heads, I'll measure the diameters tonight.
                            Greg Martin
                            2009 BMW 328i
                            2017 BMW X3
                            1990 Probe LX

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              STainless retainers should have all the strength one would need for your dropped valve problem..

                              Perhaps even a slight redesign in the retainers might have prevented this..

                              Also, too, there is the theory that stiffer valve springs also stop dropped valves.. I guess the question is, when you dropped your valve, did you find the retainer? And, if you did find both the retainers, was one of them damaged or cracked?

                              If they weren't, then it was the springs that couldn't keep up and/or were too fatigued to keep them seated..

                              If they were actually broke, then harder retainers are in order. If they just popped out, then a redesign might be more beneficial..

                              I worry about the idea of titanium retainers since, after all, many of my cutting endmills are made of the stuff, and if it can do that to metal, I wouldn't want to see what it would do to the valve stems..

                              Rob

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