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Cyborgzero Racing Technologies Cyborgzero Racing Technologies

 
 
April 3rd, 2006, 10:08 AM   #1
babyblueMX3
Supercharged Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada
: 37
: 1,015
Those with CZT engine kit and ALL others -- READ THIS!

ok guys,
remember my thread about my blown pistons ?
http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701191391

and remember this one (specially post 17)?
http://forums.probetalk.com/showthre...ghlight=wiseco

well they were both related.

My pistons were hitting my valves all the time !!!
They kept hitting and with 20psi the piston wall? finally broke. As you can see in the pic the first link, ALL the pistons failed at the SAME EXACT plate. On the intake side. So I blame it on detonation cause I thought my timing was wrong (well myabe it was a little) but what I think is when the valve hit the wall, the wall was already thin, boost just killed that little piece. I didn't noticed at first because they were all broke and I couldn't see any valve damage (valves looks nice btw).

So I took the other head off (the rear one) and noticed one pistons was still in fairly good condition. So upon further inspection I noticed a mark on the intake valve pociket, I said to myself WTF, that's the same thing that has happened with the second thread). I started to look at the pistons damage and also noticed the valve mark. Take a look again at my first link and noticed in the third pic on the left side, you can see a little mark over there.

so those that are in the process of installing czt engine kit, BE CAREFULL.
I think Wiseco changed their pistons design not too long ago. So if your kit was purchase more than let's say 3-4 months, there are good chances you'll be stuck in the same boat as me.

You guys think I can get new or some of my money through Wiseco for this ? Obviously they know there was a problem with the pistons if they changed design
__________________



01 Golf GTI 1.8T

 
April 3rd, 2006, 10:13 AM   #2
TRWeiss1
Donating Member
 
 
: Jul 2002
: Squirting all over Binghamton, NY!
: 38
: 16,018
Damn dude, I'm really sorry to hear that. I purchased my Wiseco + Millenia S rod combo about 2 months ago, so I hope I'm ok. Definitely going to do my best to avoid that problem!

Edit :: On another note, I don't think you'll be able to get any money from Wiseco. As they state on their disclaimer as soon as you open the box w/ your pistons in it, they carry no warranty, and are not responsible for what happens after installation.
__________________
95 PGT MTX - Probezilla - Supercharged 'n Squirted ZE @ 8 psi
93 FD -

-

(w/ old rotary setup)
89 DTM PGT -

miles! -

- Sold


04 Subaru WRX STi - Perrin FMIC, Greddy 3.5" catback, K&N intake -

- Mustang Dyno






(past rotary setup)

 
April 3rd, 2006, 10:45 AM   #3
mx6gt04
Turbo Member
 
: Nov 2002
: 1,807
Hmmmm.... still no so sure about that. My stock pistons broke the EXACT same way with detonation. Wiseco bases their piston crown off the stock design, and thats bad news. MUCH too thin of a cross-section

The lean charge will always affect the intake side, thats the concentration of the a/f mixture and thats where all the heat is.
__________________
94 MX3 V6 - 403 whp 412 ft lbs 15 psi pump gas. RIP
98 Ford Ranger 2wd: 5.0L twin turbo. 10 psi 408 rwhp 491 ft lbs 14 psi 478 rwhp 632 ft lbs
04 Volvo S60R 6 spd

 
April 3rd, 2006, 10:51 AM   #4
babyblueMX3
Supercharged Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada
: 37
: 1,015
what happened with janzz(sp?) pistons ?
the same problem happened to him, did he get his pistons changed ?
__________________



01 Golf GTI 1.8T
 
April 3rd, 2006, 10:58 AM   #5
FRCFD6
F/I *********
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Chi-town
: 41
: 10,539
:
Damn dude, I'm really sorry to hear that. I purchased my Wiseco + Millenia S rod combo about 2 months ago, so I hope I'm ok. Definitely going to do my best to avoid that problem!

Edit :: On another note, I don't think you'll be able to get any money from Wiseco. As they state on their disclaimer as soon as you open the box w/ your pistons in it, they carry no warranty, and are not responsible for what happens after installation.

you should still be able to get replacement pistons for free. thats a design flaw.
__________________
Life isn't like a bowl of cherries or peaches, it's more like a jar of Jalapenos ....
What you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.

Pearl '92 Audi //S4 GT3071R, running 27 psi
Lava gray '14 Audi //SQ5, Chipwerke, 034 Intake Pipe
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April 3rd, 2006, 10:59 AM   #6
mx6gt04
Turbo Member
 
: Nov 2002
: 1,807
It is possible. Thats weird either way. I slapped in some 300zx TT pistons and rotated the crank with the timing belt off, heads on with valves open, no contact. And that was with a different valve relief pattern and much smaller pockets, with a 2.5mm bore differernce. 1500 miles to boot on it
__________________
94 MX3 V6 - 403 whp 412 ft lbs 15 psi pump gas. RIP
98 Ford Ranger 2wd: 5.0L twin turbo. 10 psi 408 rwhp 491 ft lbs 14 psi 478 rwhp 632 ft lbs
04 Volvo S60R 6 spd
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:03 AM   #7
TRWeiss1
Donating Member
 
 
: Jul 2002
: Squirting all over Binghamton, NY!
: 38
: 16,018
:
you should still be able to get replacement pistons for free. thats a design flaw.
I think I'm going to call Wiseco and try to get ahold of Brian there. That's the person that Jasbro and Janz dealt with when they had piston clearance issues. Apparently he admitted to a design flaw in late 2005 and said that it would be corrected, so I'm hoping he's a man of his word. In any case, I'm going to call and read them the specs on my pistons, just to be on the safe side.
__________________
95 PGT MTX - Probezilla - Supercharged 'n Squirted ZE @ 8 psi
93 FD -

-

(w/ old rotary setup)
89 DTM PGT -

miles! -

- Sold


04 Subaru WRX STi - Perrin FMIC, Greddy 3.5" catback, K&N intake -

- Mustang Dyno






(past rotary setup)
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:06 AM   #8
janz99
Turbo Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Winnipeg
: 1,626
Well, the problem i had wasnt that my pistons were wrong, it was that i had set the timing completly wrong on the engine, and the pistons hit the valves. So i had the heads re-built, then checked the clearance between the piston and valves when i had set the timing properly.

The clearance on my valves and pistons was WELL over .350" !! Thats a mile when were talking piston to valve clearance. When i checked my clearance, i had the machine shop make up a SOLID aluminum bucket/lifter, that was the same size as the stock bucket/lifter. I checked teh clearance on both the intake and the exhaust side.

Now i only checked it on ONE piston, but they should all be the same!

Your cams also make a diffrance when taking into account the clearance on the pistons/valves. If you have ze cams, they have higher lift, meaning they open the valve further, which in turn means the valve is getting closer to the piston top. If you had your heads milled this will also effect the clearance!

Keep us updated, im very intrested in this, as you know im also running the czt piston/rod combo!

Ryan

 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:06 AM   #9
mx6gt04
Turbo Member
 
: Nov 2002
: 1,807
:
you should still be able to get replacement pistons for free. thats a design flaw.
I disagree.

If it was enough to break FORGED pistons, youd have bent valves. Plus, that damage would have happened very quickly.. Im sorry, but that is clearly detonation damage. Especially the fact that it was on the intake side. Ask anyone who breaks pistons, always the intake side. I have broken several in my day, in a handful of different motors.

Had this happened on a bad tune, or bent valves, or made a mark on a piston, my take on it might change. Ever see an interference motor snap a belt? I did. It put DENTS in the pistons and molested the valves. Nothing broken or cracked though. A forged piston will dent long before it cracks. Cracking is from impact and heat (detonation) on an already poor design.
__________________
94 MX3 V6 - 403 whp 412 ft lbs 15 psi pump gas. RIP
98 Ford Ranger 2wd: 5.0L twin turbo. 10 psi 408 rwhp 491 ft lbs 14 psi 478 rwhp 632 ft lbs
04 Volvo S60R 6 spd
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:12 AM   #10
babyblueMX3
Supercharged Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada
: 37
: 1,015
[QUOTE=mx6gt04]
Had this happened on a bad tune, or bent valves, or made a mark on a piston, my take on it might change.[QUOTE]

it made a mark on the pistons, all of them
__________________



01 Golf GTI 1.8T
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:12 AM   #11
janz99
Turbo Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Winnipeg
: 1,626
Ya, when my valves hit the pistons, it bent the crap out of all my valves, but never cracked a piston. It made nice little circular marks though

I really think this is more of a detonation issue then an interferance issue!

Can you take better pics of the piston tops?? Its really hard to make out the marks your talking about?

Ryan

: Automerged Doublepost
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:15 AM   #12
mx6gt04
Turbo Member
 
: Nov 2002
: 1,807
:
Ya, when my valves hit the pistons, it bent the crap out of all my valves, but never cracked a piston. It made nice little circular marks though

I really think this is more of a detonation issue then an interferance issue!

Can you take better pics of the piston tops?? Its really hard to make out the marks your talking about?

Ryan
x2. I'd like to see these marks.
__________________
94 MX3 V6 - 403 whp 412 ft lbs 15 psi pump gas. RIP
98 Ford Ranger 2wd: 5.0L twin turbo. 10 psi 408 rwhp 491 ft lbs 14 psi 478 rwhp 632 ft lbs
04 Volvo S60R 6 spd
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:18 AM   #13
babyblueMX3
Supercharged Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada
: 37
: 1,015
:
Ya, when my valves hit the pistons, it bent the crap out of all my valves, but never cracked a piston. It made nice little circular marks though

I really think this is more of a detonation issue then an interferance issue!

Can you take better pics of the piston tops?? Its really hard to make out the marks your talking about?

Ryan
I will do. I'll get them tonight
it didn't broked your pistons because you didn't run on it seeing how new your pistons were. run an engine with boost with that problem, it'll break trust me. Timing was good on my engine (mechanical timing)
__________________



01 Golf GTI 1.8T
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:21 AM   #14
mx6gt04
Turbo Member
 
: Nov 2002
: 1,807
Just for clarification, what was the mileage on the motor before the 20 psi untuned meltdown?

Here is a pic of my detonated stock piston as well.

http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/2...e/Im001195.jpg

And that MSQ I sent you and you used, it was around 28 degrees timing under WOT. You didnt have a wideband either did you?

That map was for a smaller turbo, 700cc water/methanol injection, and 260 degrees charge temps (pulling 1 degree timing per 10 degrees IAT over 120)
__________________
94 MX3 V6 - 403 whp 412 ft lbs 15 psi pump gas. RIP
98 Ford Ranger 2wd: 5.0L twin turbo. 10 psi 408 rwhp 491 ft lbs 14 psi 478 rwhp 632 ft lbs
04 Volvo S60R 6 spd

 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:23 AM   #15
janz99
Turbo Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Winnipeg
: 1,626
Thats true. but trust me, if your valves were hitting your pistons, you would know it! Mine made a terrable noise when they were hitting! The car also wouldnt run properly, constantly stumbling and never ran for more then a few seconds.

Yes if it only hit SLIGHTLY it would still run, but you would probably still be able to hear it hitting!

But try and get some nice clear pics for us to see! It might make this alittle easier!

Other then me, you and Rayman, i dont know of anyone else that is using this combo of rods/pistons, or anyone that actually has a running czt engine other then MYSELF........

Ryan
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:28 AM   #16
babyblueMX3
Supercharged Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada
: 37
: 1,015
:
Just for clarification, what was the mileage on the motor before the 20 psi untuned meltdown?

Here is a pic of my detonated stock piston as well.

http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/2...e/Im001195.jpg
1500km on 5psi
then around 200-300 on 20psi

what I think is that 5 psi wasn't strong enough to break it but with the little notch the valve did, 20psi was too strong for hte little part (damage) and it let go. Could be timing though but the freakin marks on the pistons let me think that.

:
Thats true. but trust me, if your valves were hitting your pistons, you would know it! Mine made a terrable noise when they were hitting! The car also wouldnt run properly, constantly stumbling and never ran for more then a few seconds.
Ryan
That is because your timing was off like you stated above


BTW what ever happend to Rayman's engine ?
__________________



01 Golf GTI 1.8T

 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:32 AM   #17
janz99
Turbo Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Winnipeg
: 1,626
If your pistons hit the valves enough to crack the pistons, it would be enough to bend our flimbsy little valves. It would take alot of force/detonation to cause a cracked piston like that.

Id still like to know if anyone else had a running czt engine yet? Mine has 700KM on it so far!

Ryan
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:35 AM   #18
mx6gt04
Turbo Member
 
: Nov 2002
: 1,807
Regardless that sucks. I know of a place that quoted me $505 for 6 pistons made to my specs. I wont post it because someone might think its advertising. But it is a viable option. Not sure what other places charge, but it was a very good deal I thought
__________________
94 MX3 V6 - 403 whp 412 ft lbs 15 psi pump gas. RIP
98 Ford Ranger 2wd: 5.0L twin turbo. 10 psi 408 rwhp 491 ft lbs 14 psi 478 rwhp 632 ft lbs
04 Volvo S60R 6 spd
 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:42 AM   #19
babyblueMX3
Supercharged Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Gatineau, Quebec, Canada
: 37
: 1,015
:
If your pistons hit the valves enough to crack the pistons, it would be enough to bend our flimbsy little valves. It would take alot of force/detonation to cause a cracked piston like that.

Id still like to know if anyone else had a running czt engine yet? Mine has 700KM on it so far!

Ryan
I don't think the valves broke the pistons but they weakened(is that a word?) it, and the boost broke it since there was damage. It's a combination of damage and high boost.
as an exemple, why do turbo flanges are so thick ? to prevent them from warping. With the piston wall reduced thickness, it warped at some place and broke at others.
__________________



01 Golf GTI 1.8T

 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:46 AM   #20
mx6gt04
Turbo Member
 
: Nov 2002
: 1,807
Mine were also warped. Flanges are so thick to reduce distorting with HEAT.

Now, provided you detonated, Im guessing those piston crowns are warped upward, correct? Just like my stockers

I had 2 broken piston crowns, 5 bent rods, and 3 warped crowns after some hefty abuse and expected damage
__________________
94 MX3 V6 - 403 whp 412 ft lbs 15 psi pump gas. RIP
98 Ford Ranger 2wd: 5.0L twin turbo. 10 psi 408 rwhp 491 ft lbs 14 psi 478 rwhp 632 ft lbs
04 Volvo S60R 6 spd
 
April 3rd, 2006, 12:00 PM   #21
cyborgzero
Balls Across The Nose
 
: Aug 2002
: Indianapolis
: 3,316
Well I did hear that the piston issues czt had with wiseco was a fight that czt had been through with them since the beginning.

Rayman had to have his pistons sent back..

czt also had to send back a few sets, something was going on at wiseco and they were getting the drawings mixed up or something..

I know that it was enough of a problem that czt stopped making the kits in frustration.. I think they had to eat a couple of engine rebuilds because of it too.

Wiseco went through a restructuring during the czt kit days too..
 
April 3rd, 2006, 09:07 PM   #22
twinturbo6
PT Regular
 
: Aug 2001
: Pooler, GA
: 484
:
Regardless that sucks. I know of a place that quoted me $505 for 6 pistons made to my specs. I wont post it because someone might think its advertising. But it is a viable option. Not sure what other places charge, but it was a very good deal I thought

Could you pm me the companys name and number I really need pistons and 500 is my limit right now....
__________________
I choose to believe what I was programed to believe.


 
April 3rd, 2006, 11:08 PM   #23
Rick_96PGT
Official PT DOM!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Phoenix AZ
: 58
: 22,225
The valves did not break the pistons, the valves would bend before the piston would break let alone become deformed.
The other issue is the engine is NON INTERFERANCE! Unless you changed deck height, valve seat depth, thickness of the valve or height of the piston from the wrist pin you can not hit the piston even if your timing was put on with out regard for timing marks.
They simply will not contact each other as long as they meet OEM specs.
__________________
Rick_96PGT #62
"I never apologize.
I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am."
- Homer J. Simpson
 
April 4th, 2006, 05:59 AM   #24
janz99
Turbo Member
 
: Jul 2003
: Winnipeg
: 1,626
:
The valves did not break the pistons, the valves would bend before the piston would break let alone become deformed.
The other issue is the engine is NON INTERFERANCE! Unless you changed deck height, valve seat depth, thickness of the valve or height of the piston from the wrist pin you can not hit the piston even if your timing was put on with out regard for timing marks.
They simply will not contact each other as long as they meet OEM specs.
I disagree with this. I managed to get my valves to hit my pistons by putting the timing cogs on the wrong bank of the engine. It forces the valves open at the wrong time thus contacting the piston. When they say this engine is NON-interferance its when the belt breaks the cams snap into a position where the vavles sit and wont contact the pistons.

At least this is my theory anyways, because everyone told me no matter how you set up the mechanical timing, there is no way the valves can hit the pistons, but i some how managed to do so! I had the heads decked, but hte shop only took off .002", not enough for the pistons to contact the valves... seat height and everything else remained the same.

Ryan
 
April 4th, 2006, 04:43 PM   #25
Rick_96PGT
Official PT DOM!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Phoenix AZ
: 58
: 22,225
Well, if you install the timing wrong
I should have read that better
__________________
Rick_96PGT #62
"I never apologize.
I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am."
- Homer J. Simpson
 
 

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