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  • #16
    Originally posted by jon93PGT
    Hey Bob....
    2. The other reason they break is due to a manufacturing problem that left burrs on the ends of some of the valveprings. Why this only happens on ZE intake valves, nobody is really sure.. But, it could be due to the valve shape. The cross section of the 03 or ZE exhaust valves is a circle. If you cut the spring and look at the face of the cut, its circular. Well, on a ZE intake valve, it is square (or diamond shape due to the way its oriented)... This could be the reason that the ZE intake valves have burrs on them, or perhaps when machining this shape of a spring, the burring is more prevalent... I'm just speculating, but those are the only differences between the ZE intake springs and the other KL springs..
    The diamond vs. circular cross section shape Jon is referring to is that of the valve SPRING steel, not the valve itself. I expect this shape has something to do with the behavioral properties of the spring and has nothing to do with the ZE retainer failure other than what has already been pointed out: It's always the ZE intake retainers that are breaking and guess what: ZE intake valve springs are the ONLY springs of their design on any of this family of engines. Thus it easily stands to reason that it's only the ZE intake retainers having this problem over the years because these are the only springs that have the bur on the ends introducing a stress point on the retainer.
    Last edited by skelly; February 16, 2005, 11:54 AM.

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    • #17
      That's a great post , I've also been searching through for all of my head work I'll be doing also on my boosted ze project, the thing is though with the hla's I dont really want to reuse them, and I've searched and asked but nobody has gotten back to me. So.... does the millenia 2.5 use hla's because I know they use kl31 heads, and the 31 is for the 31mm spring and all, so can I get brand new hla's for my ze heads, anybody who know's please enlighten, this is probably the one thing I am still unsure of. Again nice post basically ho wI had it planned out with all ferrea components, I'm hoping to fit those oversized valves though.
      Kevin Heisler

      90 JDM Fairlady Z , twin turbo lots of stuff done already but not enough space in the sig

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      • #18
        The Millenia uses HLAs, yes. They're exactly the same. I understand that some years of 626 engines have solid lifters, but I don't think they're 31mm - I could be wrong though. Unless you can find a suitable solid lifter donor vehicle, you're stuck with using HLA's. And honestly, unless there's something specifically wrong with your current HLA's, you may as well just open them up, clean them, reassemble and put them right back into the engine.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by skelly
          The Millenia uses HLAs, yes. They're exactly the same. I understand that some years of 626 engines have solid lifters, but I don't think they're 31mm - I could be wrong though. Unless you can find a suitable solid lifter donor vehicle, you're stuck with using HLA's. And honestly, unless there's something specifically wrong with your current HLA's, you may as well just open them up, clean them, reassemble and put them right back into the engine.
          Thank you, I dont mind being stuck with hla's I'm just being picky with my build up and I dont want anything to be reused, other than my crank and cams, I want a brand new motor so that I leave no weak points. But thanks alot, so all I need to do is get some millenia hla's good stuff, and they're 31mm yes?
          Kevin Heisler

          90 JDM Fairlady Z , twin turbo lots of stuff done already but not enough space in the sig

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          • #20
            Originally posted by jon93PGT
            Why did Mazda put a softer spring in? To keep the HLAs quieter.
            So do we have more HLA noise with aftermarket valve springs? The valve float-leading-to-breaking retainers makes a lot of sense. PM me when you have the heads I would like to see them.
            96 Rio red GT

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            • #21
              Well i quickly went though this thread and I can make a sugestion. Everyone always wonders why the ze retainers break, and its usually blamed on poor quality or whatever. The main thing you guys need to remember is that all the ze's in this country are junk yard engines. They have sat outside, im sure some not even in a car, been exposed to god knows what weather conditions. And some of have sat there with out being turned over for 10 years. That pust alot of stress on different metals especailly considering the retainer is always under stress to begin with. Thats just my .02

              And btw.. i have a Ferrea valve train and i love it..

              ~chris
              Chris R. - 93PGT-ZE ..... 04 Buell Firebolt (jardine exhaust) .... 95 Jeep (4" lift and 32's).....2010 Harley Davidson Iron

              The ZE ....Page 1 - Page 2 - Page 3

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              • #22
                Originally posted by skelly
                The diamond vs. circular cross section shape Jon is referring to is that of the valve SPRING steel, not the valve itself. I expect this shape has something to do with the behavioral properties of the spring and has nothing to do with the ZE retainer failure other than what has already been pointed out: It's always the ZE intake retainers that are breaking and guess what: ZE intake valve springs are the ONLY springs of their design on any of this family of engines. Thus it easily stands to reason that it's only the ZE intake retainers having this problem over the years because these are the only springs that have the bur on the ends introducing a stress point on the retainer.

                Holy crap... I meant valve SPRINGS... I knew that... lol... wow... I even proofread my posts...
                2014 BMW 328d Luxury Line- Mineral White/Saddle Brown Leather, Premium Package, Driver Assistance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, car seats inside

                2012 BMW X3 35i M Sport- Traded

                2003 BMW 330i ZHP- Alpine White/Natural Brown Montana Leather, Performance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, Certified Dinan Stage III, car seats inside

                2004 BMW 330i ZHP- Totaled

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by 93GT speeding
                  The main thing you guys need to remember is that all the ze's in this country are junk yard engines. They have sat outside, im sure some not even in a car, been exposed to god knows what weather conditions. And some of have sat there with out being turned over for 10 years. That pust alot of stress on different metals especailly considering the retainer is always under stress to begin with.
                  I don't think a constant sitting load on the retainer is a problem. I think it is a fatigue life issue with varying loads from zero (float) to full load up on the cam lobe. Repeated stress cycling from partial to max stress will not break things nearly as well as stress cycling from zero to max.
                  96 Rio red GT

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                  • #24
                    Ok, I have some more info... Mostly, I have prices and who offers what...

                    Manley- Manley currently does not offer any parts, but they can do custom valves for around $23 per valve ($552 for a set of 24). This means that we send them a stock example, and they can create their performance valves, in sizes for us. Their intake valve has a Pro Flow cut, which means that the stem diameter is reduced from 6mm to 5.5mm in the intake port area. The valves are stainless. **EDIT** I forgot to mention, they would be willing to do bulk discounts... based on 10-20 sets sold.

                    Ferrea- Ferrea currently offers the most stuff, but you will pay for this setup. They offer their Competition Plus Line of Valves (the solid stem valves...not the hollow stem). Their valves are available in stock size and 1mm oversize. For intake, you're looking at $239.88 for a set of 12, and for exhaust you're looking at $251.88 for a set of 12. Stock and oversize are the same price. They also offer a spring/retainer/lock package. The spring is a steel, dual spring setup. The retainer is titanium, and the valvelocks are chromoly. The springs are $402.96 for a set of 24, $306 for a set of 24 retainers, and $95.76 for a set of valvelocks. The total for the full Ferrea valvetrain is $1296.48. Its a nice package, but worth the money???

                    Interprep- Interprep currently only offers a spring kit. Their kit is also steel, and a single spring design, but much more affordable at $174 for the package. The also offer 2 different cam grinds, both suited for NA built engines. I do not have specs on these.

                    I also called my local Mazda dealer just for comparison... The prices I got there for STOCK parts were $25 per intake valve ($300 for a set of 12), $46 per exhaust valve ($552 for a set of 12), $8.40 per retainer ($201.60 for a set of 24), and $10.08 for EACH valvelock (2 per valve, 48 for the whole engine... $483.84). I also called the local Ford dealer, but they said all parts were "obsolete", therefore, stock parts are becoming harder to come by as the engine is no longer used.

                    That is about all I could find in terms of pricing and availability.

                    Hope this helps add to the thread!
                    Last edited by jon93PGT; February 16, 2005, 01:45 PM.
                    2014 BMW 328d Luxury Line- Mineral White/Saddle Brown Leather, Premium Package, Driver Assistance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, car seats inside

                    2012 BMW X3 35i M Sport- Traded

                    2003 BMW 330i ZHP- Alpine White/Natural Brown Montana Leather, Performance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, Certified Dinan Stage III, car seats inside

                    2004 BMW 330i ZHP- Totaled

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bobsprobe96
                      So do we have more HLA noise with aftermarket valve springs?
                      No sir - I've got Interprep springs on mine and the valve train runs quiet and smoothe as silk.

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                      • #26
                        Also, I'd like to add to the other replies...

                        KM_heisler- Yes, the Millenia has 31mm HLAs, on the intake side. Exhaust side is 30mm, same as the UD engines.

                        Bob- I would assume so. For instance, the heads we have on the race car that Dan and I have use Interprep springs, and stock other parts. As well, the engine uses massive cams with a 0.471 lift. This combination is VERY loud (sounds almost bad!), but I'm assuming its mostly due to the cam lift. With a stock cam or mild regrind, I'm sure the Interprep springs wouldn't make for any extra HLA noise...

                        93GT_speeding- So you have the full Ferrea valvetrain?? Who did you buy through. If not the full setup, please give details about what you run and where you purchased. Thanks.
                        Last edited by jon93PGT; February 16, 2005, 01:49 PM.
                        2014 BMW 328d Luxury Line- Mineral White/Saddle Brown Leather, Premium Package, Driver Assistance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, car seats inside

                        2012 BMW X3 35i M Sport- Traded

                        2003 BMW 330i ZHP- Alpine White/Natural Brown Montana Leather, Performance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, Certified Dinan Stage III, car seats inside

                        2004 BMW 330i ZHP- Totaled

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                        • #27
                          Oh well, I gue$$ I'll ju$t get $tock valve lock$...

                          Did you consider making solid lifters for Dan's car?
                          Last edited by Bobsprobe96; February 16, 2005, 03:32 PM.
                          96 Rio red GT

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                          • #28
                            We could, but the heads were already assembled, so we just dropped em on with new head gaskets... They're working just fine with HLAs now anyway, so no worries...

                            And yes, I'll be shying away from aftermarket locks and retainers. I can't seem to find anything good or cheap. I'll let you know what happens...

                            Jon
                            2014 BMW 328d Luxury Line- Mineral White/Saddle Brown Leather, Premium Package, Driver Assistance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, car seats inside

                            2012 BMW X3 35i M Sport- Traded

                            2003 BMW 330i ZHP- Alpine White/Natural Brown Montana Leather, Performance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, Certified Dinan Stage III, car seats inside

                            2004 BMW 330i ZHP- Totaled

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                            • #29
                              I meant I was shocked by the cost of new ones from the dealer.
                              96 Rio red GT

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                              • #30
                                Oh yeah.. seriously...
                                2014 BMW 328d Luxury Line- Mineral White/Saddle Brown Leather, Premium Package, Driver Assistance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, car seats inside

                                2012 BMW X3 35i M Sport- Traded

                                2003 BMW 330i ZHP- Alpine White/Natural Brown Montana Leather, Performance Package, Cold Weather Package, Navigation, Certified Dinan Stage III, car seats inside

                                2004 BMW 330i ZHP- Totaled

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