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  • #46
    wow. The SPRING RETAINER broke? Oh my..

    I would have thought the VALVE retainer would have broke.. Hrm..

    Okay, well, what are they made from? Looks like plain steel to me, perhaps heattreated.

    If stainless would be an improvement, there is a possibility that I could make new ones..

    Rob

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Zoso142
      Flatlander sells parts, from what I know they don't do any engine work.
      Flatlander does some engine work, but when you call and mention our engine, he is "vague", for lack of a better term..

      Rob

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by cyborgzero
        wow. The SPRING RETAINER broke? Oh my..

        I would have thought the VALVE retainer would have broke.. Hrm..

        Okay, well, what are they made from? Looks like plain steel to me, perhaps heattreated.

        If stainless would be an improvement, there is a possibility that I could make new ones..

        Rob

        I can send some to you if you'd like. Give you something to compare and design based on. I don't want to lose another motor because of this issue.
        Greg Martin
        2009 BMW 328i
        2017 BMW X3
        1990 Probe LX

        Comment


        • #49
          Ok guys, I have to drop my engine to do something next month, and I'd like feedback on this project bearing in mind that I live within a reasonable distance of Flatland and plan on being on vacation for maybe half the time they need to a rebuild/buildup. This comes after talking with the guy on the phone for about 10 minutes last Friday.

          $750 for stage 1 head porting
          $150 for oversized valves
          $599 for the gold engine kit plus high flow oil pump and performance main bearings and rod bearings. Pistons etc would be .020
          $65 water pump
          $?? titanium retainers
          $395 reground cams
          $800?? labor to pull engine, install parts and reinstall engine.

          The reason for the engine rebuild as much as anything else is that I have to drop the engine to do something, and in addition I'm at the point where I should do the water pump/timing belt anyway......ergo, why not build the engine while I have the chance? In addition, this is for an n/a application and for for forced induction or n20.

          Am I missing anything? The engine itself runs fine, but I want more power when I get my work done. Are the ti retainers even necessary or is that more of a "let's make this engine run forever" type thing?
          Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.
          http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463

          Comment


          • #50
            just as a follwup, any ideas what I should expect for hp considering I have all the normal boltons?

            PS coated headers, Borla catback, RT cat, HS intake, 65mm t/b, ported KL03 intake, UDP, 9lb flywheel, Jacobs ignition, phenolic spacers.

            This should be street driveable, correct? No significant loss of low end torque?
            Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.
            http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463

            Comment


            • #51
              I dont know about numbers

              Really no one can tell you what you will hit hp wise.

              Honestly you might end up with a fairly stock engine even with head work becauser head work doesnt almost nothing without some sort of tuning or increased flow.

              After you get your engine together it would pay off majorly to have sort of ignition that allows you to adjust timing and an fpr to jump fuel pressure some. Then again both those items will be blind tunes without some dyno runs.

              Building a motor is simple and is basically a laundry list the tuning is where you will see the power come from.

              As for streetable id say definately, but you should pick the cam grind yourself dont bother paying them 395 for some random grind they come up with when you can have mikes for the same price.

              as well make sure you are getting the piston type you want as well and not just a stock replacement.

              As for the rest id definately ask about shot peening the rosb while they are out and about any sort of coatings you can do.

              Teflon on your cylander walls ceramic on you head and piston tops.....moly coated bearings that sounds yummy

              Anyway id do as much research as i could and have a very specific goal and list in mind for the rebuild.

              Make sure also that this head porting is flowbench tested as simply grinding blindly will make you lose power.
              ¡Renewed Vigor!

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: I dont know about numbers

                Originally posted by KaedenKy
                Really no one can tell you what you will hit hp wise.

                Honestly you might end up with a fairly stock engine even with head work becauser head work doesnt almost nothing without some sort of tuning or increased flow.

                After you get your engine together it would pay off majorly to have sort of ignition that allows you to adjust timing and an fpr to jump fuel pressure some. Then again both those items will be blind tunes without some dyno runs.

                Building a motor is simple and is basically a laundry list the tuning is where you will see the power come from.

                As for streetable id say definately, but you should pick the cam grind yourself dont bother paying them 395 for some random grind they come up with when you can have mikes for the same price.

                as well make sure you are getting the piston type you want as well and not just a stock replacement.

                As for the rest id definately ask about shot peening the rosb while they are out and about any sort of coatings you can do.

                Teflon on your cylander walls ceramic on you head and piston tops.....moly coated bearings that sounds yummy

                Anyway id do as much research as i could and have a very specific goal and list in mind for the rebuild.

                Make sure also that this head porting is flowbench tested as simply grinding blindly will make you lose power.
                I'm having the cams reground as part of the ongoing bulk buy, not through Flatland (figured the $395 number might make a lightbulb go off). I would consider an FPR to be relatively pointless since I am running an n/a engine. As to ignition, if timing is an issue, I can deal with that later. As to your comments about head porting, I am assuming you haven't read up on Flatland racing or been to their website. As to most of the rest of your suggestions, I don't think they really fit my application because you're talking about building up the block which is rather foolish since I'm running an n/a engine. Only block work I would even consider having done as a buildup other than replacing worn parts, is to increase displacement.
                Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.
                http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463

                Comment


                • #53
                  I've been there...

                  I was thinking about flatlander and was thinking about going through them, but then heard no so good things about thier work actually some in this thread.

                  I was just saying that you make sure you know what you are getting from them.

                  As for a build up a build up is never bad, you might want to go turbo or n02 later.

                  Not to mention shot peening gets rid of inperfections that might be from worn rods and it costs little to nothing for what you gain.

                  Some sort of fuel management or increase is also needed at times because you are adding more air. I say again more air more air. You might get a little leaner and you could benifit from a bump in fuel pressure, because more air means nothing with out what? You guessed it more fuel.

                  As for what i said not being worth it for your build all i said was get some nicer pistons since well it isnt much more for a definate advantage everything else applied

                  Coating the walls means less friction = more power

                  Ceramic coatings means less heat absorbtion in the metal means more timing advance = more power

                  Ceramic coatsings also are less heat losses through the metal = more power

                  Moly coating bearings as well means less friction which again = more power

                  all of this are tips for guess what an N/A build

                  heck to add some more info

                  You could upgrade you valve springs alittle i.e. little stiffer to let you rev that beast a bit more but i doubt with the cam grind you are getting that it would net you much

                  THen looking at what happened to that retainer earlier in this post id definately look into it
                  ¡Renewed Vigor!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Any idea on the cose of coated parts might be? I mean I expect to be spending up to $3k but I don't have unlimited funds to do this.

                    As to Flatland, I haven't seen any feedback on their machine work, good or bad. When I get motivated and bored at work tomorrow, I'll do a search and see if there is any feedback on them on here.

                    re: fuel pressure. I have the 190 Walbro pump, I doubt any n/a street application is going to be taxing that and trust me when I tell you that there will be no n2o or forced induction in this car. I've had this car almost six years, it's NOT gonna happen. If it were, I would have jumped on the UR supercharger project back in 98.

                    I'll definitely look into stiffer valve springs and ti retainers.

                    Ugh, I'm going to be poor after doing this, I better have a killer engine that won't die afterwards.
                    Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.
                    http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by EvilDave
                      Ugh, I'm going to be poor after doing this, I better have a killer engine that won't die afterwards.

                      You have no idea how many times I've had that exact same thought while going through the planning process for this...






                      From the sounds of it, there will be a nice underground mafia of us running some very strong rebuilds within the next year or so. I hope that we're all turning out some significant power to show for what we all end up with. I really like this thread.
                      Greg Martin
                      2009 BMW 328i
                      2017 BMW X3
                      1990 Probe LX

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        First off, I would pretty much forget coating.. For the price of coatings, you can build another engine.. Moly I agree with, but anything else is either iffy, too experimental, or best suited to anything but a daily driver.

                        If you are spending 3k, you are spending too much for too little if you are only doing the engine. If you get any work done on the engine and want to see the gains, get a standalone ECU, higher capacity injectors, and good adjustable FPR. In a NA app, fuel and the way you apply it is important, otherwise you will build up an engine and get kneecapped by the stock ECU.. Let the ECU be relegated to running things its capable of, like the AC and VRIS.

                        It might be time to save that $800 from removal labor, do it yourself, drop off the engine and invest in a standalone engine controller, perhaps one that has some extra pinouts to customize your VRIS to your modified intake..

                        I would figure that your spring retainers could easily be made of chrom-moly billet or stainless and be hard enough to take whatever is thrown at them, perhaps with a few stress ridges emanating radially from the center to take up some of the stresses too. Ti is a bit extreme, and may even be detrimental to the springs themselves. Case hardening might also help in that application, ie induction hardening around the spring seats.

                        Also, too, MOST IMPORTANT: GET THEM TO FIND YOU SOME GOOD ROD BOLTS TO REPLACE THE STOCKERS! This cannot be said enough..

                        So, for now, it seems the mission critical issues before ANY of us make big hp still remain the:

                        1) rod connecting bolts
                        2) valvespring retainers
                        3) #6 crank oiler

                        Until these weak links are taken care of, we are all pissing up a rope as far as taking the stock motor to any real heights. The potential is there, but I see a pattern of these 3 problems occurring over and over.

                        Rob

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          IIRC, case-hardening is more of an external shell, rather than a heat-treating process which alters molecular structure. I know it might seem knitpicking at this point, but just curious to entertain all thoughts on what type of hardening is best for the retainers. ie: what types of forces, bending/stretching, twisting, etc... does the material take, and what material has best properties for application.

                          Stainless is a tough enough of a material AFA hardness is concerned. I'd have to break out some metallurgy info for its content and additional properties. SS is also readily available and not as exotic as Ti.

                          Thoughts?

                          In addition, what are thoughts on cryo treating the heads? Or just the cams/valves/springs.
                          redeemed
                          IndyProbes founder

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by cyborgzero
                            It might be time to save that $800 from removal labor, do it yourself, drop off the engine and invest in a standalone engine controller, perhaps one that has some extra pinouts to customize your VRIS to your modified intake.
                            If I was capable of AND so inclined to do it, I would. For those of us who work 9-5 office jobs, it's not something I generally would get involved in, especially considering Flatland is about an hours drive away. Sometimes you pay money for convenience.

                            More importantly, this is being planned around a vacation to CA, so the point of the planning is to drop the car off a shop close to Flatland, go the airport and not have to deal with it except for communications and correspondence. Granted this might take three weeks to do, but for at least 10 days, I won't care because I'll be driving a rental anyway.
                            Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.
                            http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Coatings and prices

                              www.performancecoatings.com

                              Ring & Pinion Sets $60.00 top bottom and skirts each

                              Comb. Chamber (per Cylinder) $15.00 walls and tops of heads

                              Oil Pump Assembly $35.00

                              so all your pistons/combustion chamber is pricey----- 450 plus the shipping costs

                              but the oil assembly is a nice price for something we are really weak in.

                              you can dry film lubricate anything btw

                              Cams, valve springs, bearings

                              As well they do trannies and oil pumps.

                              I dont think most here will surpass the need for a shimmed/coated oil pump, IF they take the time to figure out what interprep did to the oil passages to win endurance races on this engine. Hell just let interprep do the bottom end prep work and assemble it else where.

                              Only one person would have to let them drill out the oil passages so they could pass the knowledge to the rest of us.

                              As for me with a built motor....right now Im happy she runs strong with 150k once i graduate I think ill keep the probe and build it up simply because it is the first car that i purchased and maintained.

                              My basic plan is really to get a ze drop the compression to stock levels do what we are talkin about in this thread and boost the hell out of it.

                              Or option 2 jump to 11:1 - 12:1 compression get some insane cams valve springs and what not from ferrea what rev the hell out of it with some crazy timing.

                              Either way only way to make power out of a small engine.

                              As for the weak links go to jeff's site and read about his exhaust valves they obviously can over heat and mess up our day as seen in that broken retainer from earlier this thread.
                              ¡Renewed Vigor!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                some ?'s to jump start the thread

                                http://www.probetalk.com/forums/show...did=1701036988

                                Looking at the top line kit offered by flat lander i have come up with some questions.

                                On thier page they talk about performance bearings....is this simply a strength upgrade because for 20 bucks extra why not. Are these really an upgrade?

                                Why isnt the high flow oil pump they offer any good? Ive seen some people knocking it. If so what other higher volume oiling options are there?

                                The kit they offer is simply a bottom end rebuild, but what about heads? If I wanted to freshen up my engine, to be like new what would need to be done/purchased for the heads. Otherwise I think I am going to rebuild my little 03 this summer for the prices flat lander offers and what machine shops in this area can do.
                                ¡Renewed Vigor!

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