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  ProbeTalk.com Forums > Performance Section > 2nd Gen (93-97) V6 2.5L Performance > 2nd Gen (93-97) V6 2.5L Performance Archive

2nd Gen (93-97) V6 2.5L Performance Archive Quality Archived Posts and FAQs

 
 
June 8th, 2003, 02:01 AM   #76
KaedenKy
Electrical Engineer
 
 
: Feb 2002
: Virginia Beach
: 37
: 2,719
Alright...

This thread really needs a jump start.

Ive been thinking about it and have decided how I want to go with a build, so far im sourcing 03 parts to build up.

With I would love to see some discussion on how to make some more power.

Ive heard that all the power is made in the heads. Well besides porting, maybe some coating and cam profiles...what can I do to get some power out of this build. I know with mikes cams Valve springs wont do anything since Im not reving that high and I wont be hitting a valve float level. Otherwise how can I see gains from the heads?

As for the bottom end. I am going with a flatlander kit and cleaning up the stock rods. Can i specify compression ratios to flatlander or do I need to go through another source?

With the compression I know I am going at least 10 to 1, but what about 11 to 1. Would the cams take car of the low end pressure enough that I Wouldnt need a timing retard...and fueling would I need to pump fuel pressure to allow for this or would it make more power simply on stock fueling? Really its not a more air mod...so you wouldnt need more fuel.

Lastly I see nomadgamer has heads he has ported to ze spec...what would I need to give to a shop to have them port my heads this way. I think it would be awesome to just port some 03 heads out like this.

Intake manifold....anyone have suggestions for this? Personally I think I would just put some phenos on port match them to the head then port match the IM to the Phenos....
__________________


ˇRenewed Vigor!

 
June 8th, 2003, 03:53 PM   #77
cyborgzero
Balls Across The Nose
 
: Aug 2002
: Indianapolis
: 3,316
Stock Rod bolt info

overall length - 56.5mm

threads:
length - 15.5mm
diameter - 8.5mm
pitch - .75mm

neck:
length - 25mm
diameter - 7.5mm
radius to stay area - 2.5mm aprox.

stay area:
length - 7.5mm
dia- 8.5mm

head pressure disk area:
L- 3mm
D- 15mm

bolt head:
L- 5.5mm
D - 11mm
12 points

All lengths except the overall length are subject to slight error, BUT, with the lengths as they are, any bolt with these dimensions should fit just fine and fall within spec.

So, I guess we need someone to start cross referencing new bolts..

It LOOKS like the holes in the con rods could EASILY be retapped to accept more standard 9mm thread bolts without even having to redrill!

There are PLENTY of apps with 9mm bolts, everything from Honda to Mitsu to VW..

But there is no doubt that 8.5mm .75 pitch bolts are not the most standard thing out there.

I am having trouble even finding a tap that will do that thread pitch and size.

Rob
 
June 10th, 2003, 10:58 AM   #78
EvilDave
Senior Member
 
: Apr 2000
: San Diego
: 49
: 2,495
Ok, update on my job. I'm starting now to make plans to move ahead around the end of next week on my engine project. I do need a little feedback on some final things before I finalize the job.

What's definitely planned for performance:

Head porting
Cam regrinding through Mike (Mike I will PM you about making arrangements for this)


For Maintenance/repair:

Timing belt/water pump (75k on engine)
EGR system
A/C system


Items I need feedback on:

High performance oil pump, yay or nay? For small $$ I'm inclined to say yay if I get an oil pump as part of the rebuild kit.
Knife edging of the crankshaft?
Block boring?
Custom pistons?

I've decided against titanium retainers already. Money is *somewhat* of an issue. For the job I think I am looking at about $4k and can go up to $5k if necessary but don't want to if I don't have to.

Im also looking at downtime of upwards of a month which sucks, but at least for a week I will be away, maybe rent a car for a couple weeks (it IS summertime) or ride my bike to the train station.
__________________
Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.


http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463
 
June 10th, 2003, 03:35 PM   #79
cyborgzero
Balls Across The Nose
 
: Aug 2002
: Indianapolis
: 3,316
stainless steel retainers should be enough.. IIRC the retainers are currently mild steel, so stainless would be a decent upgrade at a reasonable price.

Titanium is definitely overkill for any of our apps.

Rob
 
June 10th, 2003, 03:39 PM   #80
EvilDave
Senior Member
 
: Apr 2000
: San Diego
: 49
: 2,495
:
Originally posted by cyborgzero
stainless steel retainers should be enough.. IIRC the retainers are currently mild steel, so stainless would be a decent upgrade at a reasonable price.

Titanium is definitely overkill for any of our apps.

Rob
Do I even need stainless ones?
__________________
Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.


http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463
 
June 10th, 2003, 03:58 PM   #81
ZiMX3
Guest
 
: Oct 2002
: York, Pa
: 1,232
If Olistair says the retainers are weak and Greg had had one of his sheared in half already, then that's enough evidence for me to be cautious.
 
June 10th, 2003, 09:54 PM   #82
cyborgzero
Balls Across The Nose
 
: Aug 2002
: Indianapolis
: 3,316
I would say stainless retainers would be about as strong as you would need, and it is prlly a quarter of the cost of titanium retainers.
 
June 11th, 2003, 08:18 AM   #83
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 41
: 14,956
Promise:

Split Retainer + Envelope = In mail tomorrow.
__________________
Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
June 11th, 2003, 12:32 PM   #84
EvilDave
Senior Member
 
: Apr 2000
: San Diego
: 49
: 2,495
Still waiting for feedback on block boring, crankshaft knife edging, and hey thoughts on rockers, valves, springs,etc. wouldn't hurt either.
__________________
Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.


http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463
 
June 12th, 2003, 09:04 AM   #85
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 41
: 14,956
I'm definitely doing an overbore when I rebuild my engine. CorkSport can source factory-overbore ZE pistons for the application. According to the emails I've received from CS, they are available in std, +.020", and +.040" bore sizes. Kinda strange for a japanese-market part to go by English measure, but I'm going by what they say. I'm going to make sure that I have the pistons in hand before I have the block bored. I'd hate to have it be incorrect. I've heard from another source that they are made in std, +.25mm and +.5mm sizes.


Until I have them in hand, I'm not making any statements for definite.
__________________
Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
June 12th, 2003, 09:13 AM   #86
EvilDave
Senior Member
 
: Apr 2000
: San Diego
: 49
: 2,495
I am planning on overboring as well with Flatland. I don't know what the size will be, but they are planning on making/acquiring custom pistons based on how much boring they do. I think I am going to pass on the crankshaft knife edging. As much as I am a fan of lightened rotational mass (as I have a UDP and 9lb flywheel), I am not convinced there is enough mass on our crankshaft and quite frankly, I don't want to be the first person to be a guinea pig on too many internal mods. Hell I'd love to make my GT the Probe equivalent of the Knight Industries Two Thousand (kudos to anyone who knows what I just referred to), but I can't spend that kind of money and even if I could, I wouldn't without more R&D of the application to our engine.
__________________
Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.


http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463
 
June 12th, 2003, 09:17 AM   #87
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 41
: 14,956
:
Originally posted by EvilDave
Knight Industries Two Thousand

If my car ever talks to me, it had damn well not be in some faggy british accent.




I'd prefer a female with a soft touch of the south in her voice to vocalize my car's AI.
__________________
Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
June 12th, 2003, 09:24 AM   #88
EvilDave
Senior Member
 
: Apr 2000
: San Diego
: 49
: 2,495
:
Originally posted by Bufalo
If my car ever talks to me, it had damn well not be in some faggy british accent.
Did you know the actor who did the voiceover also at the same time was playing a doctor on St. Elsewhere?



:
I'd prefer a female with a soft touch of the south in her voice to vocalize my car's AI.
I had the displeasure once of having met a woman who had such a voice. She also worked using that voice at, you guessed it, a phone sex service. Not only that, she drove an 89 Probe Gt. Now guys don't get worked up, when she drove that car, it hugged the ground and it wasn't because it had a lowering kit in there.....
__________________
Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.


http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463
 
June 13th, 2003, 03:39 PM   #89
Triped
Donating Member
 
: Apr 2000
: Not on PT
: 2,667
Knifeedge crankshaft = no. I can't remember why but I am certain I have seen something where it is not a good idea for street applications.
__________________
Former owner of a '95 PGT KLZE with many mods. Current owner of a 2002 Protege ES. "It's better to have never loved, than to have loved and lost"
 
June 13th, 2003, 09:01 PM   #90
KaedenKy
Electrical Engineer
 
 
: Feb 2002
: Virginia Beach
: 37
: 2,719
knife edging

Knife edging is pointless unless you rebuild and tear down your engines after drag runs. The edges wear down really fast and really is just money wasted
__________________


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June 13th, 2003, 11:42 PM   #91
cyborgzero
Balls Across The Nose
 
: Aug 2002
: Indianapolis
: 3,316
Also, too, since we have a crank scraper pan, it really wouldn't do much.. There isn't much oil flailing from our cranks because of that.

Rob
 
June 14th, 2003, 04:37 AM   #92
KaedenKy
Electrical Engineer
 
 
: Feb 2002
: Virginia Beach
: 37
: 2,719
:
Originally posted by EvilDave
Still waiting for feedback on block boring, crankshaft knife edging, and hey thoughts on rockers, valves, springs,etc. wouldn't hurt either.
Block boring: This well does add some power, but you have to consider on such a short stroked motor you wont get much of a displacement increase since displacement = bore x stroke.

Vavles springs: Overall you dont need stronger or stiffer valve springs unless you are reving so high you hit a valve float condition. Stiffening these will make you loser power over the whole band, so unless you have some seriously aggressive or high peaking cams I say it is a waste as well.

Rockers: I have no info on.

Really for a naturally aspirated motor there are only 4 major ways to increase power.

Increase Timing

Decrease rotating mass

Rev the hell out of it with cams

Bore/Stroke i.e. displacement

You can free up power by lubrication as well but that is rather secondary...like moly coating or top oilers

With the Kl you have to realize we have an extreamly short stroked durable motor. I feel the best way to make power in a rebuild use stoke rods and pistons is cam and timing advance.

Jeff Jeske is running a 100 shot of nitrous on stock rods and pistons. That is saying alot really. You arent going to break the motor through sheer power.

Rafi of rr racing is at 287 whp which is above 300 at the crank and his block isnt melted

There was a post about a euro company making 800 hp on a turbo kl motor....again block is good

Then interprep raced these in endurance races and proved they way to make power and how durable these motors are.

They put in alot of cam with flow benched heads. They kept the bottom end stock with 2 major exceptions. They used studs instead of bolts on the connecting rods...which upgrading to a 10mm bolt would be fine for most of us.

They aspirated the crank with the oil pump shimmed.

Concluding in my humble opinion there are only a few choices that need to be made when making a motor.

Compression? anywhere from 9.2::1 to 11:1 i think is as high as you can get on pump 93 octane gas

Mikes cams or interpreps racing grind

Aspirating the crank? If you want to go for it bore them out 1mm all around as suggested.

I think the top oiler thing is a really good idea

I think the oil cooler is an excellent addition

The accusump is great as well

Anything else you do to your motor has to be based on your CR and your Cam otherwise you really dont know if you need them...

As for head porting unless you pick the racing cam grind I would only do 2 things

Oversize your valves 1mm or more if you can find them....yes they cost about 23 to 26 buck each, but if you do nitrous or turbo you will enjoy the gain very much.

Secondly Just get the ports polished and dont port them. Unless you have a performance not a machinist....a performance shop with experiance in flow benching and porting heads I dont think it is worth it when using ze or mikes cams....No race interprep or simularly aggressive cams yes but make sure the shop knows thier stuff and can flow bench test them

Overall the moral of the story is "It depends on where you are going with it"
__________________


ˇRenewed Vigor!

 
June 14th, 2003, 06:16 AM   #93
EvilDave
Senior Member
 
: Apr 2000
: San Diego
: 49
: 2,495
KaedenKy, thanks for your input. As it stands now, I am getting Mike's cams, will port and polish the heads, will explore the studs on the rods, bore the block 1mm and thought ought to do it.

This is still going to be an n/a engine and I expect the c/r to be around 10.5:1. As to rotating mass, well I have the UDP and 9lb flywheel already and the consensus here is to not lighten the crank. After that, well i have just about every bolt-on known to Probe owners so we'll have to see what happens
__________________
Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.


http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463
 
June 14th, 2003, 09:21 AM   #94
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 41
: 14,956
Re: Promise:

:
Originally posted by Bufalo
Split Retainer + Envelope = In mail tomorrow.

I held good on that too. You should see it in a plain envelope in a few days. It's just the split retainer taped to the inside of the envelope. I didn't suspect that any other written explanation inside was all that necessary.
__________________
Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
June 14th, 2003, 11:14 AM   #95
kasey98662
Jr. Member
 
: Mar 2002
: Vancouver, Wa
: 143
Well I guess it is my turn. I was driving to work about 2 wweks ago and the motor started tapping. I put it in the shop and they told me I spun a rod bearing.

Last Monday mI pulled my motor, and by Wednesday I had it completely torn down to just the block. Now I am having it rebuilt. I found this post after I had decided what I wanted to do. I had oregionally planned on over boring 0.040 and getting the short block totally rebuilt with turbo pistons. It seem I'm going in the right direction. Depending on how much it will cost I will be getting the Heads rebuilt and Ported and polished. My motor would be completely rebuilt at that point. Then By Winter I hope to have F/I installed and ready to go for next summer. Just the machine work is going to run me about $3,500.00. Now I'm realizing all the other stuff I need to do while I'm putting it back together.
-Clutch $330.00 ATC from Corksport
-Rear Motor mount $100 from corksport
-Various gaskets for reassembling the motor aprox $100.00+
-Then their are some cosmetic things I would like to get done under the hood as well probably no more than $100.00
-New Driver side Axel $89.00


So Basically when It's all said and done I will be looking at more like $4,200 unless I forgot anything. It sounds like a lot but I belive it will all pay off when I get F/I and can run upwards of 1 Bar or more boost.

This is a great Post and very informative. Lets hope a lot of people can use this to their advantage.
__________________
Lazer Red 97 PGT
 
June 15th, 2003, 07:43 PM   #96
Duddy
Senior Member
 
: Mar 2001
: Pearl City, HI
: 2,756
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is engine balancing. A smoother spinning rotating mass = less stress on everything, which means slightly quicker revving, and certain parts will last longer. I have absolutely no idea how much it would cost though.



:
Originally posted by Bufalo
I'm definitely doing an overbore when I rebuild my engine. CorkSport can source factory-overbore ZE pistons for the application.
Those bastards! They wouldn't help me at all with getting factory overbore pistons for the FSZE 4 banger. I guess they just have no love for us poor little 2.0 guys
 
June 19th, 2003, 02:45 PM   #97
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 41
: 14,956
Re: Re: Promise:

:
Originally posted by Bufalo
I held good on that too. You should see it in a plain envelope in a few days. It's just the split retainer taped to the inside of the envelope. I didn't suspect that any other written explanation inside was all that necessary.

Did it show up yet?
__________________
Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
June 19th, 2003, 08:51 PM   #98
Zoso142
Member
 
: Jun 2000
: Gaithersburg, MD
: 41
: 318
Holy crap! ROB STOP!

Check this out!

Flatlander Rules!

I know there phone will be ringing alot. Someone find out how much.
__________________
Mike Evans
92 MX-3 GS MTX 2.5L
93 MX-3 GS SE MTX 1.8L

KL-DE/ZE, ZE ECU, KLZE pistons, Port/Polished DE heads, Stiffer Valve Springs, '96 Millenia Intake Manifold, 67mm TB, Clutchmasters Stage III, Fidanza Flywheel, and Walbro FP.
 
June 19th, 2003, 08:59 PM   #99
EvilDave
Senior Member
 
: Apr 2000
: San Diego
: 49
: 2,495
:
Originally posted by Zoso142
Holy crap! ROB STOP!

Check this out!

Flatlander Rules!

I know there phone will be ringing alot. Someone find out how much.
That they sell them isn't exactly a news flash. After speaking with Phil there about them a week ago, unless you have a MONSTER engine, they aren't worth the money.
__________________
Cobra Commander was robbed. He should have been our 44th president.


http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463
 
June 19th, 2003, 10:09 PM   #100
Zoso142
Member
 
: Jun 2000
: Gaithersburg, MD
: 41
: 318
:
Originally posted by EvilDave
That they sell them isn't exactly a news flash. After speaking with Phil there about them a week ago, unless you have a MONSTER engine, they aren't worth the money.
Oh I'm sorry when I read about Titanium retainers earlier in this thread I thought some one was kicking around the idea of making them out of it, did't know Flatlander was actually selling them. My bad
__________________
Mike Evans
92 MX-3 GS MTX 2.5L
93 MX-3 GS SE MTX 1.8L

KL-DE/ZE, ZE ECU, KLZE pistons, Port/Polished DE heads, Stiffer Valve Springs, '96 Millenia Intake Manifold, 67mm TB, Clutchmasters Stage III, Fidanza Flywheel, and Walbro FP.
 
 

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