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  ProbeTalk.com Forums > Performance Section > 2nd Gen (93-97) V6 2.5L Performance > 2nd Gen (93-97) V6 2.5L Performance Archive

2nd Gen (93-97) V6 2.5L Performance Archive Quality Archived Posts and FAQs

 
 
May 14th, 2003, 11:27 AM   #1
Probe 2C
11 Digits of Prime
 
 
: Nov 2000
: Vandalia, OH
: 37
: 14,905
Engine Build/Rebuild. Let's work together.

I'd really like to se something we can throw in the archive that is well thought out and can be a basic guide to those who would like to build their motors (rebuild for reliability, strength, power, etc... it all starts pretty much the same). Obviously each application will vary and everyone who builds their motor will tweak it a bit, but a general guidline with prices so people can basically option their rebuild to their budget and also know what they are getting.

With that said I did about 3 minutes worth of searching, and quite a bit of time typing and have a start. First of all, I don't see rebuilds as something you should go cheap on, with that said I do think you should shop around. Here's a quick list of what I found quickly that I know would be needed (somewhat organized).

Start with a Flatlander Complete Rebuild Kit.
$459.00 Listed on the site. Contains head gasket, valve cover gaskets, viton valve stem seals, and all other required sealing gaskets, strips and plugs, oil pan gasket where applicable timing gasket, rear main seal, set of pistons and rings, main bearings, rod bearings, thrust washers, timing belt, and a set of expansion plugs. Pistons & Rings:
Available in Std., .020 over, .040 over. Bearings: Std., 10, 20, 30.

Next to do the job right you need a new water pump.
$62.00 at any autoparts store (90% of the cars on this board have the 32mm pulley I believe).

Along with that you should replace the Timing Belt Tensioner Arm.
$140 or $160 I believe. Available at Mazda, do not get this from anywhere else the quality is not the same.

Since our cars usually die from oil starvation, I would go ahead and spring for a new Oil Pump.
$90 to $115 and available from Flatlander or Autoparts Stores. $199 for the highflow. I've heard that all are the same, you decide. Also, while you are doing your pump, find a 3mm washer to shim your pump. This increases pressure.

If you would like to replace your valves (12 intake and 12 exhaust).
$8.00 and $9.00 respectively ($204.00 total) from flatlander (very nice place btw) .

Also available are our HLA's. They have the standard KL size 30mm HLA's, I do not see any of the slightly larger type used on ZE heads. This may be a good idea if you don't like the tapping, though Silver_Bullit recently posted a way to clean/refresh HLA's.
$13.00 each ($312 total).

That makes up most of the 'parts' for a mostly stock rebuild.

For a more performance oriented engine you really should look at each major component and see what you can do with it to improve it. I'll start with the things that need the least/have the least improvment possible.

Crank: Our factory crank is great. Polish it, for basically no payout. Knife-edgeing is basically worthless unless you're rebuilding your engine every few 1/4 passes. Basically leave the crank alone. It's good, strong and basically will never hold you back.

Heads: Nobody has really flowbenched our heads to find where the real performance gains can be had. Removing casting marks, smoothing things out and basically cleaning them up is always a good thing (well, unless you screw up flow). Decking the heads is possible as our engines are non-interferance. I believe .055" is the maximum the heads can be decked before the engine becomes interferance (Mazda Comp). .035" will require you to adjust your timing. Stem seals are included in the Flatlander kit.

ZE Heads are a good possible upgrade. With ZE Heads your HLA's will not all be the same side (iirc intake are larger, exhaust are the same 30mm). Again, until someone puts them on a flow bench I can't say where to remove material other than clean up the basic things.

I have not priced out headwork myself, but I think for a rebuilt head with a valvejob, and general clean up work I think it is about $250-350???

Cams: mikeseli is basically cam literate. He offers multiple grinds for specific applications (na; FI, and n20) often available in the BB forum for $375-425 his also do not require shims. Other companies do it, but I'm not sure of their pricing (someone want to post?)

Valve Springs: Um, I'm not this good but I know that some people have upgraded theirs. I don't know to what rate or any of that junk... someone post it in.
Pricing??

Valves: Larger valves aren't something that many people have explored and I don't know how much room there is (again, I'm not the smartest guy here, just trying to get something together). Stronger valves, shotpeened valves, polished valves, any of the above.
Pricing??
__________________
-Chris C.
Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD
 
May 14th, 2003, 11:27 AM   #2
Probe 2C
11 Digits of Prime
 
 
: Nov 2000
: Vandalia, OH
: 37
: 14,905
Connecting Rods: Many options with rods. Millenia rods are reportedly 40% stronger. Cryotreatment or shotpeening are possible for hardening as well. Forged rods are an option, however 90% of this board will never need forged rods. We simply do not build our engines to this point.
Pricing ???

Pistons: Weisco has the blueprints for some nice 8.7:1 Forced Induction Pistons (utilize Millenia Rods). Paeco and others make custom higher/lower compression pistons.
Pricing starts near $700/set of 6.

Piston Rings: Chrome-moly, Gapless, etc. I don't know much and don't have pricing.

Block: ToastiER knows where to get copper head gaskets and I believe block guards. Neither of those are really needed outside forced induction. Boring the block is very possible. I think .080" is possible w/o resleeving. Resleeving requires a VERY experianced machine shop. The more you overbore, you get closer to having to re-do the upper girdle and/or add a block guard. Problem with the girdle/guard is that you have to have them welded into place, then have the block re-bored/honed. Changes can be made to the oil passageways, specifically the #6. Boring/Honing costs ~$300-$350 sometimes more for larger bores, and significantly more if you're resleeving/block guarding.

Um... that's all I'm prepared to type at this point. I'd REALLY love for like 10 or so smart people to come in here and add/subtract/restate things and make this something that in the end we would have a very nice list of options and guidlines that we could point people to.

That said, get to work.
__________________
-Chris C.
Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD
 
May 14th, 2003, 03:24 PM   #3
SlammedJDM
Guest
 
: Jun 2001
: NNJZE
: 1,809
nice post, Chris.
Hope this post gets a lot of useful info, and a lot of intelligent responses. I made the only unintelligent one......
 
May 14th, 2003, 05:20 PM   #4
FWP!
PT Inner Circle
 
: Feb 2000
: Phoenix, AZ
: 39
: 15,674
I actually just tore down a new ZE to begin rebuilding it.

I'm getting that rebuild kit you mentioned at the top of your post, minus the new pistons, but getting new rings and everything else.

The shop I dropped my stuff off yesterday at (block halves, pistons and rods, heads, crank) is working on them for me. They're going to shot-peen the rods ($3/rod), mill the heads true, boil them to clean them, put new valve guides and seals in, straighten/inspect/polish the crank, new freeze plugs in the block, re-ring the pistons for me. The rest of the work (re-assembly, smoothing out cast marks inside intake manifold, etc) will be done by myself, which saves a ton of money. It's a side project, the engine that's in my GT now still runs like a top and in no need of replacement what so ever, and has 120k miles on it.


The ZE will get new:

Oil Pump ($115)
Water Pump ($60)
Flatlander kit ($459 minus price of pistons)
Head bolts ($70)
Tensioner Arm ($152)
re-hone of block and all misc. head work, crank work, etc from shop that has parts, Price still yet unknown, waiting to hear if heads pressure tested ok and are going to be cleaned and prepped ($???)
Pacesetter headers ($276)
Fidanza flywheel ($250)
_______________________

that's about $1600 assuming the shop work on the heads/etc. will be about $400. Not bad to have a brand new engine again.


Good thread
__________________
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Past: '05 Audi S4, '88 626 turbo, '93 red PGT, '94 white PGT, '95 Purple PGT, '95 Red PGT, '00 MGT, '07 Mazdaspeed3
The mom's car: White on black GTS, 5 speed, tint.
 
May 14th, 2003, 05:49 PM   #5
Silver_Bullit
Five Star Member
 
 
: Mar 2002
: Maine, USA
: 37
: 4,155
Re: Engine Build/Rebuild. Let's work together.

:
Originally posted by Probe 2C

Crank: Our factory crank is great. Polish it, for basically no payout. Knife-edgeing is basically worthless unless you're rebuilding your engine every few 1/4 passes. Basically leave the crank alone. It's good, strong and basically will never hold you back.
For strenght, our crankshaft can't really be beaten. However, it's oil flow sucks bigtime. It isn't bored/drilled striaght through, it is a taper bore, so #6 rod bearing is at teh smallest end of the crank, and thus gets the least amount of oil.

Also, on a differnt note. Oil is IMO one of the biggest problems in these engines with failure. The oiling system just plain sucks @ss. If/when I do build and engine for the PGT, it will be getting an electric oil pump and the stocker is going away. And regarding the heads, if somebody wanted to (again IMO) they could have the oil ports opened up that lead to the HLA's. These ports go from the drill holes (throught the entire head, prolly 1/4" hole) to the HLA bores. These holes are no larger that 1/16" or so. If somebody opened them up to 1/8" that would be a big improvment IMO. Think about it, more oil in the HLA when ther is no pressure on it, the farther the valve will open when the cam turns and puts pressure on it. It will also open sooner and faster.

The above is prettymuch strictly for an all out performance rebuild.



~Aaron'

:
I talked for a while again yesterday with Alistair Oag from Interprep on the phone, specifically, about the oil starvation problem. Here's what he told me -

The #1 cylinder is oil by the front main journal.

#2 and #3 are oiled by another main journal.

#4 and #5 are oiled by the next main journal

#6 is oiled by the end main journal. But, the problem with #6 is that the oil passageway through the crank is too small, and eventhough one main journal is only oiling one rod bearing unlike the other mains which oil two, the oil pressure down at that end of the crank is significantly lower than the 1st few cydliners. The oil ports on the crank are indeed taper-bored sort of like a funnel to allow a more even pressure across the crank, but the hole on the end main is simply too small. They raced an MX6 with stock rods and pistons, only modification being "aspirating the crank" (drilling out the oil ports) and he said for "24 hours, the car ran the race always from 5k rpm up to 7800, on STOCK internals!" their only other mods being head, cam, intake manifold, and header work, the car made about 260 hp n/a he said. With the high flow pump, and shimming the pump as well to raise the pressure, they haven't had a problem yet letting the engine rev up to 8200 rpm.


So after he told me that, I actually feel better about these engines. After hearing so many people having the same exact problem with the #6 rod ceazing on the crank, including my ZE which did it, I was very paranoid and had begun to never really rev or drive my car hard.
From thsi thread:
http://www.probetalk.com/forums/show...did=1701035237
__________________
~Aaron~
1993 Silver PGT MTX ~~R.I.P~5/7/14

 
May 14th, 2003, 11:06 PM   #6
KaedenKy
Electrical Engineer
 
 
: Feb 2002
: Virginia Beach
: 37
: 2,719
This is what we need.

I've lately been looking around at machine shops and other custom auto places to find a place that can do the work I only dream about.

Honestly ive found out of the 20 places in town that i have been too most send everything off to be done else where and they only assemble parts and then I thought about it and realized what can I do to make more power n/a or beef up....for another application.

What really needs to be discussed are the limits of this engine.

Max over bore

Heads and why in hell havent a F/I guy not had the heads looked into yet. Damn so many with turbo set ups worth more than my car and no data on what we can do to improve some flow.

cant really think of anything else as I am so tired, but honestly I dont think most shops know of to tune up this engine. I talked some fantasy with some of the owners and realize all i would get is a simple rebuild of my engine with no power gain to show for it other than a less tired kl 03....what i want is a nice kl that n/a can keep up with my brothers soon to be f2t beast.

just do add something constructive

Valve Springs: These do not need upgraded unless you are rev'in high enough to experiance valve float.

You didnt mention performance coatings of any sort...ceramic coatings or dry film....

Ceramic will reduce losses to heat if you coat piston tops and combustion areas on the heads

Dry film can be put on bearings, valves and cams to reduce frictional losses.

Questions:

You mentioned before removing the FGS how and why?

What does over sized bearings do for you?

How would the set up on an electic oil pump work? Its inside the oil pan, how do you get it power?
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May 14th, 2003, 11:27 PM   #7
spada
ProbeTalk MC
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Eating spaghetti in Rochester Hills
: 39
: 15,555
i would like to know what kind of rings come with the rebuild kit, and what are they made from.

i have been told that our stock piston rings are steel which make for a very good ring, and they are very flexible where if you bend them, they will come right back to their regular position, and of course being steel, they don't really mess up the cylinder wall much at all, that is why when you see people tear their 2.5's down, you can still see the hatch marks.

now in the rebuild kit, are the rings basically iron? meaning not the best springy material, and would wear down the cylinders quicker?

was just wondering if anyone had info on that, and where you can find the cheapest piston rings that are just like the stock ones, which i think are superior to any rebuild ones (unless the engine kit comes with ones just like the stock rings)
__________________
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May 15th, 2003, 01:13 AM   #8
Vseved
PT Regular
 
: Jun 2001
: Gone to performance land
: 628
On my engine I only disassembled the heads to port and polish them. It had 100.000 miles at the time and a failed water pump caused it to overheat. It was very cheap to buy as a project engine :-)

New water pump, valve stem seals, head gaskets. That's it. It runs like a champ.

I ported the heads using some good sense and it turns out to work very well. since the heads were shaved 0.5 mm, new idler timing belt pulleys were fabricated to keep the timing in place.
Reground cams are a must for anyone serious about performance. Mikeseli has some good cams available.


Did 10 laps at a racetrack last weekend, revving it at the redline all the time. There was an Integra TypeR which had a rod bearing failure. Not enough oil in the engine probably (around MIN sign on the stick). See even Hondas can seize their engines.
 
May 15th, 2003, 01:41 AM   #9
hawaiianPGT
Donating Member
 
 
: Aug 2000
: Honolulu, Hawaii
: 1,227
Re: Re: Engine Build/Rebuild. Let's work together.

:
Originally posted by Silver_Bullit


Also, on a differnt note. Oil is IMO one of the biggest problems in these engines with failure. The oiling system just plain sucks @ss. If/when I do build and engine for the PGT, it will be getting an electric oil pump and the stocker is going away.



From thsi thread:
http://www.probetalk.com/forums/show...did=1701035237
Electric oil pump?? What you probably want is a belt driven oil pump similar to the ones used on a dry sump oiling system.
__________________
Probe is now gone!


 
May 15th, 2003, 08:15 AM   #10
Probe 2C
11 Digits of Prime
 
 
: Nov 2000
: Vandalia, OH
: 37
: 14,905
I had hoped for more responses :-/
__________________
-Chris C.
Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD
 
May 15th, 2003, 08:37 AM   #11
KaedenKy
Electrical Engineer
 
 
: Feb 2002
: Virginia Beach
: 37
: 2,719
Don't worry some more will respond :P

Ill keep this beotch bumped Because I want to hear some ideas.

Really my choices right now are take my engine to abacus racing and tell them i want to go fast or do the same at interprep.

I want to have a nice laundry list of things i want done by what companies so i can blow away some people on this board some day

Why cant everyone have hopes like that for thier probe?
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ĦRenewed Vigor!

 
May 15th, 2003, 08:41 AM   #12
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 42
: 14,957
This is a great thread. More responses will come as the people who it actually applies to get further into their rebuild projects. The oil system info is probably some of the best we've compiled yet.

Does anyone have any direct experience with having heads rebuilt/ported/etc? I have an extra set of KL31 heads that I intend to use for this build. I may be able to have them flow-tested at the same time. Any names or such who I should talk to? I'd like to keep the price at least sane, but I'm not looking for Cheapy Joe's Port-O-Rama... Alistar probably has the most experience, but I don't think I'm rich enough to have him do it...


RE: Replacement pistons: CorkSport can get factory overbore KL31 pistons for roughly $45 each. They'll come with OEM rings. That's a major piece of the engine rebuild I'm planning.


RE: KL31 heads and HLA's: Remember that the 2.5L Millenia engine used KL31 heads in the North American car. Intake HLA's will be available from a Mazda dealer and probably also from Flatlander. I would also suspect that anyone having heads professionally rebuilt and worked could have new valves, springs, and RETAINERS sourced by the shop doing the prep work. After popping my ZE due to a split intake valve spring retainer, that's a serious consideration for me. Writing the check for titanium pieces isn't really out of the question for me.


RE: head shaving and timing: What actually needs to be adjusted when the heads are resurfaced? Is it just the tensioning system? I can't see how putting the heads .035" closer to the crank would change anything in the actual cam timing. There is still a finite number of teeth on both the crank pulley and the cam pulley. I could see that if the tensioning system doesn't have enough range, that it would need some modification. What is the safe limit for the heads before this needs done? Is that the .035" number quoted before?

RE: Oling modifications: Who has experimented (on this board) with enlarging the crank's and heads' oil passages? What successes and methods did you experience and use? This is probably something any one of us who is taking the time to fully build a ground-up engine should look into, even if only to preserve our investments.



This thread should be sticky.
__________________
Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
May 15th, 2003, 09:12 AM   #13
Probe 2C
11 Digits of Prime
 
 
: Nov 2000
: Vandalia, OH
: 37
: 14,905
Yea, I probably should have made this sticky Sometimes I forget about that.

That's a great price for KL31 Pistons w/ rings

RE: KL31 HLA's. On flatlander's site they list (for the 2.5L Millena) only having the 30mm HLA's available... that's the same size they list for our engine. Perhaps a call or email to them and we could locate the larger (did I read once that it's 33mm?) intake HLA.

Retainers: I had hoped they would have been included in one of the kits from flatlander, but I do not think they are. Definately something I agree that should be looked at. Perhaps even custom PRD Stainless retainers

The number for shaving the head (.035") is supposedly what requires an adjustment to the timing tension system while the .055" makes the car an interferance engine. It seems small to me also, however when you look at the geometry of it, it is .035" shorter from the crank to the front cam sprocket, .035" shorter from the front cam sprocket to the tensioner, .035" shorter from the tensioner to the rear cam sprocket, and .035" shorter from the rear cam sprocket to the crank again. That's a total of over 1/8". That 1/8" accounts for at least 1 tooth of the timing belt. I'm not sure if a 1/8" shorter timing belt could be sourced, or how to modify the tensioner to accomodate the size.

Perhaps simply by keeping the amount shaven from the head to .025" for most applications?

For oiling... I know Joe Kamman's engine has modification to the oiling system. Though I would still think that Alistair probably has the best answer to it.

I'd love to get inside his head and take gobs of knowledge.
__________________
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Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD
 
May 15th, 2003, 09:29 AM   #14
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 42
: 14,957
I've got a whole bucket with the 24 HLA's from those KL31 heads, I'll measure the diameters tonight.
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Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
May 15th, 2003, 09:58 AM   #15
cyborgzero
Balls Across The Nose
 
: Aug 2002
: Indianapolis
: 3,316
STainless retainers should have all the strength one would need for your dropped valve problem..

Perhaps even a slight redesign in the retainers might have prevented this..

Also, too, there is the theory that stiffer valve springs also stop dropped valves.. I guess the question is, when you dropped your valve, did you find the retainer? And, if you did find both the retainers, was one of them damaged or cracked?

If they weren't, then it was the springs that couldn't keep up and/or were too fatigued to keep them seated..

If they were actually broke, then harder retainers are in order. If they just popped out, then a redesign might be more beneficial..

I worry about the idea of titanium retainers since, after all, many of my cutting endmills are made of the stuff, and if it can do that to metal, I wouldn't want to see what it would do to the valve stems..

Rob
 
May 15th, 2003, 10:33 AM   #16
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 42
: 14,957
I'll dig up and post the picture of the retainer when I get home from work tonight.


It was literally sheared exactly in half. I found the two pieces still in place between the HLA and the valve spring. A harder retainer is what's needed. This has only been a documented problem on KL31 heads, as they (probably) would use larger diameter retainers along with the larger HLA's and possibly larger springs?


In some ways it's impressive how one shear destroyed a whole engine, and in other ways it's kind of depressing.





Honestly, I would suspect that anyone interested in a serious performance build engine would want to use the KL31 (ZE) heads, just because of how much better the intake ports are from the factory. It'd take a *lot* of porting to take a KL head to that state.
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2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
May 15th, 2003, 11:00 AM   #17
Zoso142
Member
 
: Jun 2000
: Gaithersburg, MD
: 41
: 318
Oh boy, lots to say here,

First, increase the size of the oil passages will decrease the oil pressure.

My re-ring kit from Flatlander had chrome ring for the top and the second ring was cast iron IIRC.

There is no way shaving the heads will make 1/8 of slack in the belt. Every motor Alistair built that had shaved heads/block he did not need to take up for the slack in the belt, because its small enough for the stock tensioner to handle.

Alistair has told me that the ZE retainers are the same as the KL03/DE retainers and he thinks the reason they break is because the ZE is a higher reving engine and they maybe they can't handle all the high rev's. Who really knows how these motors were driven back in Japan.

I wouldn't buy a so-called High flow pump, just take the cover off of your old one and use a feeler guage to see if it still fits withing factory spec's. Only difference in the High flow pump is suppose to be tighter clearances, which really doesn't mean high flow at all.
__________________
Mike Evans
92 MX-3 GS MTX 2.5L
93 MX-3 GS SE MTX 1.8L

KL-DE/ZE, ZE ECU, KLZE pistons, Port/Polished DE heads, Stiffer Valve Springs, '96 Millenia Intake Manifold, 67mm TB, Clutchmasters Stage III, Fidanza Flywheel, and Walbro FP.
 
May 15th, 2003, 12:32 PM   #18
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 42
: 14,957
:
First, increase the size of the oil passages will decrease the oil pressure.
If the pump is shimmed, we're under the assumption we'll be increasing the oil pressure out of the pump, correct?


With a normal trade-off between volume and velocity, if we enlarge the passages, thereby lowering the oil pressure (and also the velocity of the oil) in those passages, we're neither netting nor losing anything? If we are increasing the pressure (by shimming the pump) then we will end up with more oil in the end, no?


:
My re-ring kit from Flatlander had chrome ring for the top and the second ring was cast iron IIRC.
Good info.



:
There is no way shaving the heads will make 1/8 of slack in the belt. Every motor Alistair built that had shaved heads/block he did not need to take up for the slack in the belt, because its small enough for the stock tensioner to handle.
This was also my feeling. As I said, there is still the same number of teeth on every wheel, they'll still turn at the same rates in relation to one another. So long as we are not building them into interference engines (is the .055" number different for a ZE due to the non-dished pistons?), and the tensioners have enough ability to take up the slack, I think a good deck on the heads would be fine. More compression is good compression for us N/A guys.



:
Alistair has told me that the ZE retainers are the same as the KL03/DE retainers and he thinks the reason they break is because the ZE is a higher reving engine.
Score. So if someone comes up with a good strong steel retainer, we'll all benefit.
__________________
Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
May 15th, 2003, 12:43 PM   #19
Probe 2C
11 Digits of Prime
 
 
: Nov 2000
: Vandalia, OH
: 37
: 14,905
:
Originally posted by Zoso142
There is no way shaving the heads will make 1/8 of slack in the belt. Every motor Alistair built that had shaved heads/block he did not need to take up for the slack in the belt, because its small enough for the stock tensioner to handle.
I just showed you that it will make the perimeter the belt is required to travel more than 1/8" smaller. I don't know how much more the stock tensioner can compensate for (maybe 1/16", maybe 1/4"; like I said, I know very little).

How much did Alistair shave? If he shaved .030" or .035" then he wouldn't have needed to make any changes, the Mazda Comp (which Coleman cited) said that .035" was the max without a different tensioner... they tend to be pretty accurate.
__________________
-Chris C.
Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD
 
May 15th, 2003, 01:33 PM   #20
Jeff_Jeske
PGT Shopping!
 
 
: Mar 2000
: STEVENS POINT WI
: 47
: 7,947
I would skip overboring because its expensive and odds are your block is fine.

I would skip ceramic coatings because I did the coating and when I shine a light down into the spark plug hole all I see is black carbon on the pistons. I doubt it is doing anything.

I would skip shotpeening because the weak spot on the rod is the cap stud. I didn't have any luck finding an ARP cap stud to use. You cannot really go bigger but maybe better.

I would go with larger exhaust valves it you are planning on nitrous or boost. I am sure you can find a junk head in the forsale forum to take measurements from.

I wouldn't modify the blocks oil passages. I would instead use high quality oil.

If not building a motor for boost or juice I would just get a KLZE.
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May 15th, 2003, 01:50 PM   #21
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 42
: 14,957
:
Originally posted by Jeff_Jeske
I would skip overboring because its expensive and odds are your block is fine.

Unless, like me, you've had the #5 piston seize on it's wrist pin (after smashing into a dropped intake valve) and score the hell out of the cylinder wall. In that case, it will need more than just rehoned, and if you can get marginally larger displacement, why not?
__________________
Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
May 15th, 2003, 02:25 PM   #22
Probe 2C
11 Digits of Prime
 
 
: Nov 2000
: Vandalia, OH
: 37
: 14,905
.020" over coated ZE pistons on shotpeened rods with a shimmed oil pump and slightly enlarged #6 oil passage. All nested under shaved heads with ported runners and larger exhaust valves, higher rate valve springs and stronger retainers; all new bearings, gaskets and junk and you're looking at a factory fresh motor basically. It can also be rebuilt again. (at .040").

Like I said; this is primarily for people who are looking for high performance... otherwise a rebuild simply is not cost effective (well a nice freshening to a ZE would be nice).
__________________
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Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD
 
May 15th, 2003, 02:52 PM   #23
Bufalo
PT is my life!
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Harrisburg, NPA!
: 42
: 14,957
:
Originally posted by Probe 2C
.020" over coated ZE pistons on shotpeened rods with a shimmed oil pump and slightly enlarged #6 oil passage. All nested under shaved KL31 heads with ported runners and larger exhaust valves, higher rate valve springs and stronger retainers; all new bearings, gaskets and junk and you're looking at a factory fresh motor basically.

Build it with a .040" overbore from the start, add Mike Seli's street cams, using a KL31 intake manifold, and you're looking at what I will be running in my MX-6 a few thousand dollars from now.


Add to that my 65mm TB, KL31 ECU and JE50 VAF Borla and Testpipe, UDP, and Fidanza flywheel. I'll install it with whichever headers are best at the time. I'll put in a CM3. An adjustable FPR will be a necessity at that point.

I would hope that an engine like that could make 230+ HP at the crank, which would probably be about 200-210 HP at the wheels, N/A. Yes, please. I would like to be conservative with my expectations, #1 to not be disappointed, and #2 to be pleasantly surprised if I make more.

It'll be a fun motor. I will have every single possible bolt on, plus I'll have completely rebuilt the internals. At that point, boost would be my only alternative. I kinda like that. I plan on having a cryo-treated transmission with an LSD to drop in with the engine, also. It'll be a mean machine.
__________________
Greg Martin
2009 BMW 328i
2017 BMW X3
1990 Probe LX
 
May 15th, 2003, 04:45 PM   #24
Jeff_Jeske
PGT Shopping!
 
 
: Mar 2000
: STEVENS POINT WI
: 47
: 7,947
:
Originally posted by Bufalo


I would hope that an engine like that could make 230+ HP at the crank, which would probably be about 200-210 HP at the wheels, N/A. Yes, please. I would like to be conservative with my expectations, #1 to not be disappointed, and #2 to be pleasantly surprised if I make more.
Um...probably not.
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May 15th, 2003, 04:57 PM   #25
cyborgzero
Balls Across The Nose
 
: Aug 2002
: Indianapolis
: 3,316
Ceramic coatings can actually be detrimental from what I have been reading..

Shotpeening is just cheap insurance if you already have the motor apart.

The new studs for the rods should be a fairly stock item? Surprised you couldn't find any.

Larger exhaust valves are always a good thing, and, once again, if you are in there already, might as well fix that too.

Okay, say you open oil passage #6:

One could use air to flow through to simulate fluid and do a differential pressure and check the various flow rates through the passage to the crank and know *exactly* how much, or what ratio of resistance is being seen by the incoming oil and know how much to open up the passage with respect to all the others.

Scientifically a sound premise, but I wouldn't do it without flowing the passages myself to make sure the resistance in each one was equal so as not to open it so much you starve the rest to get oil to #6.

Rob
 
 

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