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November 30th, 2008, 08:44 PM   #1
KLZE Porsche
Politically Correct User Title
 
: Feb 2004
: Alabama
: 58
: 5,899
crank balance, crank flex, harmonic balancers and UDP's

Well I decided to try to put together a little something to help out newbies and keep them from damaging their engines by listening to advise from those who have had good luck with Under Drive Pulleys (UDPs).

So first of all I would like to say that I do not totally condemn UDPs because there can be some advantages when done correctly. Misconception #1 is that UDPs are not balanced. The chances are that most UDPs are actually very well balanced. The problem does not lie within the UDP itself. Misconception #2 is that harmonic balancers are not neccessary. The problem is that when you remove the harmonic balancer without balancing the rotating assembly and then install a UDP you could end up with a balance that is far enough out to do some serious damage to your engine -if not completely destroy it.

There are many that will say that they have never had problems with a UDP and have never balanced their engines. But every KL has a very unique set of weighted rods. No two sets are the same from the factory. Some are very close to balanced and some are quite a bit off. I have balanced my own rod sets for years now and also done things like lightening and beam polishing. I have done rod sets down to within less than a half gram of difference between heaviest and lightest. Factory rods are not this close at all! This is what the Harmonic balancer is for.

The harmonic balancer is really a vibrational damper as well as a balancer. It balances out the engine by offsetting the vibrations (crank flex) that is induced by the differing weights of the rod/piston sets. In stock a stock KL I have found as much as 3 or 4 grams of difference between the lightest and the heaviest rods of a matched set. This can be hell on bearings or your oil pump if the damper is replaced with a non-balancing UDP. It does not matter how well your UDP is made or how well it is balanced - it will still not get rid of those oscilations. Your engine may last for quite some time like this but it will defintitely last a shorter time than with a HB. The unbalanced assembly might last years like that or it might just go out in a week with a big bang!

I have put together a couple of GIF animations below so as to hopefully demonstrate the idea. The first is with the normal harmonic balancer. The balancer opposes the harmonic vibrations in two ways. One way is the resistance to applied force (vibration/crank flex) due to gyroscopic inertia. If you have ever spun a bicycle wheel and tried to turn it at 90 deg to the axis of rotation you would find that it can be difficult depending upon the rotational speed. The other component of the HB balancing is the rubber barrier which absorbs (dampens) much of the crankshaft vibrations and nulls them out.

If you are familiar with how Bose headphones with sound canceling work then you know that they sample the noise with a special microphone and then take the recorded noise and compare it to typical noise and then they produce an output which is 180 deg out of phase to the incoming noise sample which effectively cancels out the target noise.

This is somewhat how a harmonic balancer helps to reduce the crank vibrations that are induced by mis-matched rod/piston weights. They do not totally get rid of the vibrations but they reduce them significantly. Here is the simulated HB and the simulated UDP version is below that. Both are assuming that the rotating assembly has not been machine shop balanced and both are exaggerated simulations for demonstration purposes.

Here is the HB version:



And here is the UDP version:



The moral of the story is that if you want to use a UDP then do yourself and your engine a favor and get the rotating assembly balanced so that you get more out of your engine. And if you do not care if it puts more wear on your bearings or pump then don't worry about the balancing. After all - there are some protesters out there who will say that they have never had a problem with UDPs. Wikipedia has an article on UDPs and I would suggest that it is worth reading. But it isn't anything that I didn't already know.

P.S. A well balanced engine makes more power by not losing it to parasitic vibrational induced drag.
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November 30th, 2008, 10:19 PM   #2
JKpgt96
Drives Light Blurple Car
 
 
: Aug 2000
: St. Louis, Missouri
: 12,722
Ok..just clearing this up..if you do a build with an UDP, get it balanced WITH the UDP and you SHOULD be alright..correct?

I have one for my build, just to free up space down there and figured I would be okay if I have if for when everything is balanced..
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November 30th, 2008, 10:32 PM   #3
bdmpgt
Guest
 
: Nov 2006
: 505
the irony here is that there's a bulk buy going on for the rr ud pulleys.
 
November 30th, 2008, 10:43 PM   #4
MakatoMotors
PT Master
 
: Jan 2006
: LaX, WI
: 35
: 5,094
:
Ok..just clearing this up..if you do a build with an UDP, get it balanced WITH the UDP and you SHOULD be alright..correct?

I have one for my build, just to free up space down there and figured I would be okay if I have if for when everything is balanced..

balancing an engine i believe means that all the pistons are the same weight (off my grams normally), and also all connecting rods weight the same. its normally done by shaving the bottoms of the pisons (non combustion area) to loose that 1 or 2 grams to make it the perfect weight to the others

anyone feel free to correct me if im wrong.
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November 30th, 2008, 11:15 PM   #5
JKpgt96
Drives Light Blurple Car
 
 
: Aug 2000
: St. Louis, Missouri
: 12,722
I know what happens when the balancing is done, but I am making sure I was right in my thinking about having the UDP before the bottom end is sent out for balancing (UDP inc.)
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'95 Probe GT- Blurple-ish, SSR Integral A2s, D2 Coilovers, Renault Laguna Lip SOLD
'96 Probe GT-Bolt-Ons, MS1 v3.0, Custom Suspension, The original Tri-Flow Turbo Cams, etc..Sold, and missed

New? From Missouri/S. Illinois/Kansas area? Let me know!
'95 M3/2/5-S366 2J Swap in progress

 
November 30th, 2008, 11:18 PM   #6
Speed3.5
Balls Across The Nose
 
: Dec 2007
: North Jersey Area
: 118
I'd opt for a light weighted but same size crank pulley over UDP's, they're PnP plus but its better like mentioned up that the block need to be balanced and while at this deal it is good to balance the block when you upgrade to performance flywheel as well that way you balance both sides and everything in between.
 
November 30th, 2008, 11:35 PM   #7
KING6
Supercharged Member
 
: Nov 2003
: Waite Park, MN
: 36
: 1,254
A couple more Negatives towards UDP.

1. They dont offer threads in the pulley itself for using a puller on. So if its stuck on the crank (and it usually does, even if it was antiseized) Your option is a rubber hammer, torch, and/or a puller that will destroy the pulley.

2. They fall apart, This was on an MBX UDP, only 800miles on it.



3. They require grinding of the oil pump housing just to use them.

They arent worth the hassle for the unoticeable gain you may or maynot get.
 
December 1st, 2008, 07:46 AM   #8
TravisWilliams_GT
yes.....wait, what?
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Lynchburg, VA
: 44
: 12,536
a dead pulley
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December 1st, 2008, 08:17 AM   #9
dna59
Senior Member
 
: Oct 2007
: Belize
: 3,319
Nice write up...deniately good info
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December 1st, 2008, 08:49 AM   #10
tour96se
PT Semitic God
 
: Mar 2006
: oneonta,ny
: 9,285
how about a gif w/the normal kl rotted rubber balancer?
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December 1st, 2008, 10:07 AM   #11
WhiteDart
POC Mod
 
 
: Oct 2002
: Boosting across east TN!
: 35
: 9,049
There used to be a video on Overboost.com but I guess that site isnt what it used to be.
Basically they set a crank from a B16 on v-blocks and hooked it up to a microphone and an O-scope. They fitted the crank with an underdrive pully and struck it with a rubber mallet. The crank rang like a bell on the scope for nearly 45 seconds. The crank was then fitted with the stock harmonic balancer and it was struck again with the same hammer, it only registered on the o-scope for 2 tenths of a second. It was then struck again with a STEEL hammer and it only rang for 3 tenths of a second.

Ill keep my stock pully thank you.
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December 1st, 2008, 10:10 AM   #12
TravisWilliams_GT
yes.....wait, what?
 
 
: Feb 2000
: Lynchburg, VA
: 44
: 12,536
Same here.
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December 1st, 2008, 10:11 AM   #13
aahtxb
PT Regular
 
: Feb 2007
: St. Louis
: 35
: 754
I really like this write up!!


So just because you use a lighter flywheel, you should have it balanced?

If thats the case, one should just wait to get both (UDP & Flywheel) before they do the balancing?

How much does that normally cost?

I was getting ready to throw my ZE back in, but now yall guys have scared me a little with all of this vibration crap!!!!!!!!
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December 1st, 2008, 05:33 PM   #14
easyBob
Turbo Member
 
: May 2002
: Citizen of Virginia
: 41
: 1,639
From what I have heard, the flywheel/clutch assembly do not need to be balanced with the crank, rods, pistons.

The hard part is finding a machine shop near you than has the counterweights to balance our cranks.

-Chris
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December 1st, 2008, 05:46 PM   #15
KLZE Porsche
Politically Correct User Title
 
: Feb 2004
: Alabama
: 58
: 5,899
:
From what I have heard, the flywheel/clutch assembly do not need to be balanced with the crank, rods, pistons.

The hard part is finding a machine shop near you than has the counterweights to balance our cranks.

-Chris
Chris, and everybody else with questions,

When you balance an engine as Makato said - the first step is to balance all of the pistons to as close as possible (within a half gram or less) Normally piston sets come matched and don't need to be balanced unless you buy the cheap ones. Next you balance the rods by balancing them on a sensitive scale with the small end supported so that it registers the heavy end mostly. You then balance the heavy end to the lightest weight by removing material from the large end counter-balance. Then after all of the large ends are balanced you weigh the entire rod and if there are heavier ones then you remove material from the small end to equal the weight of the lighter ones until they are fairly close. Then to get even more accurate you would repeat the proceedure until you get nearly no imbalance when weighed either way. I have my own special method that allows me to get my rods to within an un-measurable amount or less than 1/4 of a gram.

Then when when you take them to the machine shop along with the harmonic balancer/UDP, crank, flywheel , and clutch (if you want it done properly). A good machine shop will have a lazer balancer which uses lazers to detect any off-balance. They will attach counter-weights to the crank which simulate the weight of a rod and piston. Then the balancing will be done to whatever tolerance the shop strives for. The one that I used to use said that he balanced them to within a total imbalance equal to the weight of a dollar bill. I do not know how far from crank center he meant the weight of the dollar bill would be - if near center then that is damn close!

Chris, if you trust that whoever did the flywheel did a job that would compliment the balance job that you get on a crankshaft then you would not need to take them the flywheel. But every time I took the flywheel too -they did balance work on it (a little drilling here, a little welding there etc.)

:
So just because you use a lighter flywheel, you should have it balanced?
P.S. You can probably throw on a Fidanza with no increased vibrational load. It is just that removing the harmonic balancer without balancing the engine can be bad. (note that i said "Can Be") but not guaranteed to be bad.

You can go to another country and have relations with a friendly woman and and no protection and that "'Can be" bad! But then again -you could take your chances -some people do it and have no problems!

:
They arent worth the hassle for the unoticeable gain you may or maynot get.
I don't believe there really are any gains. They just look cool! If you weigh the reduced rotating mass (very minimal) and reduced accessory load in one hand and then the possiblity of damaging bearings, oil pump or increased vibrational induced drag in the other hand. hmmm. let me think about that one for a bit.

You can use a UDP but if you do then be safe and use a IUD -oops I mean get your crank balanced!

:
There used to be a video on Overboost.com but I guess that site isnt what it used to be.
Basically they set a crank from a B16 on v-blocks and hooked it up to a microphone and an O-scope. They fitted the crank with an underdrive pully and struck it with a rubber mallet. The crank rang like a bell on the scope for nearly 45 seconds. The crank was then fitted with the stock harmonic balancer and it was struck again with the same hammer, it only registered on the o-scope for 2 tenths of a second. It was then struck again with a STEEL hammer and it only rang for 3 tenths of a second.
Great stuff Dart!
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December 1st, 2008, 09:37 PM   #16
BoostedMan
Donating User
 
: Oct 2005
: Brandon, FL
: 41
: 7,200
Yep thats why you'll have #1 main bearing failure before all the rest

I wouldn't put on an aftermarket flywheel without checking the balance first, I had my Fidanza balance checked at my my local good old boy speedshop, if your curious, it was off balance straight from Fidanza.
To get the balance they'll drill small holes to remove material to gain the balance, just like the stock flywheel has small holes for balance.

Edit; awake now and remembered a fact.
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December 1st, 2008, 09:56 PM   #17
KLZE Porsche
Politically Correct User Title
 
: Feb 2004
: Alabama
: 58
: 5,899
:
Yep thats why you'll have #1 main bearing failure before all the rest.

I wouldn't put on an aftermarket flywheel without checking the balance first, I had my Fidanza balance checked at my my local good old boy speedshop, if your curious, it was off balance straight from Fidanza.
To get the balance they'll drill small holes to remove material to gain the balance, just like the stock flywheel has small holes for balance.
Wow! I would have thought that a Fidanza would be balanced. Damn -I guess if I ever use one of those again I will throw it into the balance box too.

Damn, You know that Brandon is where I bought my first probe at? Waay cool!
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December 1st, 2008, 10:19 PM   #18
BoostedMan
Donating User
 
: Oct 2005
: Brandon, FL
: 41
: 7,200
Cool,
I thought the same as you did, that it would be balanced already, I was already working on my crankshaft at that time, and thought while I am at it let's throw this flywheel on the balancer and check it out. It wasn't out of this world off, but it didn't hurt to get it done, I was already hundreds in to my rebuild already, this didn't cost me anything to get done, as the machine shop already knows be my name now. Motor lasted another 55,000 before throwing #1 rod threw the block. not too shabby for 20 year old motor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slElC...eature=related
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/R...bly_157545.htm
For the novice,
http://www.flixya.com/video/1469572/...ine_crankshaft
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December 2nd, 2008, 12:39 AM   #19
PGTBrow
NOT Daily Driven
 
 
: Jul 2003
: Martinsburg West-by-God-Virginia
: 36
: 3,301
I have a UR UDP on both of my Probes. 5 years later both engines are still running.
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December 2nd, 2008, 01:52 AM   #20
stoker100
Donating Member
 
 
: Oct 2003
: Australia
: 37
: 5,851
just to add some random maths into the thread (as i do), assuming our alternators output about 120A (120A x 13.8V = 1.66KW) that means it can provide 1.66kw of electrical power, now take into account the alternators inefficiency (say 80%) and make it 2KW (2kw = 2.7hp), thats the MAXIMUM crank power the alternator can take from your engine at any given time.

what else is connected to the pully?
well the power steering pump which would take maybe 1.5KW max to run, and A/C compressor, assuming the compressor is off most of the time you can assume a loss of maybe 0.5KW (max) through rotational resistance so your typical power gain from removing the accessory belt completely would be about 4KW (5.36chp) assuming i haven't forgotten anything.

so under-driving these accessories by say 20% you could expect a proportional gain at the crank 0.8KW (1.07hp) (4KW x 20%), transfer that to the wheels and there's nothing left. Now obviously the reduction in rotating mass comes into some effect but im not going to bother with the maths on that unless someone can post the exact weight differences.

to sum up if your power steering and a/c compressor are working fine (as you assume they are) this would be the most expensive "bang for buck" performance mods available.

im not trying to talk people out of buying them, if you want one thats your choice. i would like people to understand this should be placed towards the far end of any mod list. just my opinion.

- Steven
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December 2nd, 2008, 11:08 AM   #21
PGTBrow
NOT Daily Driven
 
 
: Jul 2003
: Martinsburg West-by-God-Virginia
: 36
: 3,301
Here, Mike from UR sent me this link.


http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/faq.aspx#section2
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December 2nd, 2008, 05:03 PM   #22
KLZE Porsche
Politically Correct User Title
 
: Feb 2004
: Alabama
: 58
: 5,899
:
Here, Mike from UR sent me this link.


http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/faq.aspx#section2
Yea - leave it to the manufacturer to lie through their teeth to get a sale. Sounds like the writer should run for a political position! They are saying that our crank hub is not a harmonic balancer but only for noise. So much of a lie! I built two overdrive HBs for a couple of members on here to do testing on and one chose to balance the HB as I suggested. The other didn't. The one that did get it balanced said that there wasn't much of any wobble. The other that didn't said he had some wobble. hmmm. Visible wobble is not the same as a noise harmonic. And at what frequency is a harmonic not considered as a vibration or wobble? So they are saying that because the frequency is high (note that they do not give specific frequencies or any facts to back up) And they claim big hp gains too! hmmm.... not!
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December 2nd, 2008, 07:55 PM   #23
j-dogg
/p/hotoPOC
 
 
: Sep 2004
: pwning the crap out of supersquid in Unreal Tournament
: 35
: 14,829
A UDP is useless on a KL unless you're reliably taching 9k+ rpm everyday, or the car is track only. I use an OEM HB. for me, the ends do not justify the means, 2 or 4 hp could be gained with headers or other bolt-ons.

UDP's are great for track cars, but for my daily whore I'll stick with an HB.
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December 2nd, 2008, 09:01 PM   #24
KLZE Porsche
Politically Correct User Title
 
: Feb 2004
: Alabama
: 58
: 5,899
:
I have a UR UDP on both of my Probes. 5 years later both engines are still running.
I went to Korea numerous times during my USAF career and during one memorable visit there were a lot of guys who did not take proper precautions. Some of them never had a problem. But 13 guys who went out the first day ended up with the gift that keeps on giving. I chose not to play and I had no problems either!

So to the newbies: The info has been provided so make your own choices!
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December 3rd, 2008, 08:20 PM   #25
PRD24V
Member
 
: Oct 2003
: MIAMI
: 211
Excellent Course of Study, I have much respect to Level of Precision you take in KL-Series Engine Development. I know much about mechanic's, but dude!!!! you just take it to a superior-level. Keep up the excellent work
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