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Old August 23rd, 2009, 01:02 PM   #1
slinkyPgT
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Exclamation Transforming to a track car

This winter i plan on converting my DD pgt mods in sig, to and all out strictly track car.

a solo 1 car that will be a good competitor after a few years of driving lessons.

so. as the winter near i plan on doing a full interior as well as a under hood tear out and gutt down to the metal.
I mean no dash,no carpet,headliner,no unnecessary wiring/modules (air bag/stereo/heater controls/cruise/abs nothing except for the basics.

I.E headlights/wipers/gauges/and engine controls (ignition/ecu)
everything i can thing of and don't need is gone.

my essential goal is to be: boosted on MS,track prepped (solo1 or 2),have a rollcage,two light weight seats,suspension dialed,balanced,and be ready to compete.
of course the challenges time,set-up,driving,tuning,maintenance,etc all come into play.

i have picked a partner to help with the process and will be a co-driver so that helps. He is intelligent in the drifting sport and suspension set-up and tuning. big plus there.

anyone have any comments suggestions good or bad?
i will update with pics and info on the build process as winter progresses/and as stock parts come off and are no longer needed. thanks
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 01:40 PM   #2
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That's alloott of work. I had started on my old car. It's exhausting. Good luck.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 03:09 PM   #3
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1) Set the next 2-3 hours apart

2) Lock your door(s), turn off the cell phone and chatting services

3) Read this thread on how you should proceed in building a competitive machine

4) Cry

5) Start doing it.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 04:14 PM   #4
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haha #2 is funny i live in milwaukee where our mayor gets beatin down so the doors are always locked

thanks for the link...
although im not really gonna follow the guidlines of SSCA...rather just build the car...or ill go road racing instead
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 05:50 PM   #5
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Either way step #1 is always to obtain the rulebook before you touch the car.
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SCC You can't say we didn't try, and all the bolt-on headers, plumbing, and tuning could barely get this V-6 to put out more than 150 horses.

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Old August 23rd, 2009, 08:09 PM   #6
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I'm doing a somewhat similar build, but I'm keeping a full interior/AC as some of my drives to the track are about 5 hrs each way.

Listen to Dan. If you have ANY intention of competing with the car, pick a class (or a progression of classes) read the rulebook before you prep the car. It sucks in a big way to unmod a car and have to spend yet more money later to get the right parts for the class.

If you just want to have fun, and don't think you'll compete, do what you want and enjoy it.

From an SCCA perspective, the 2G Probe/MX-6 is a bit of an underdog. It used to be a force in G-Stock in autocross years ago, but it's been pushed well down the pecking order. It's not a popular car in the non-stock classes either, but that may be a case of no one making a real run with one that's fully prepped. Ryan (Dillinr here on PT) has a VERY respectable STX class build on his car, but I'm not sure he's run it much at the national level.

From an SCCA roadracing perspective, the PGT/MX-6 is an Improved Touring S car, and again, isn't very popular. The front brakes on the car simply aren't up to the abuse. They fade and go away fairly quickly under racing stress.

NASA is a little better place to play for the PGT/MX-6. Todd (d15b7) is very successful in the NASA roadracing class PT-E. Todd built his own Big-brake kit that turns the car's weakness in to a strength. I'm sure you've seen his videos on here.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 08:15 PM   #7
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thank you for that bit of info...
i wasnt 100% clear that i am going to pick a class...but more or less rip most of the car to bits and pieces...
the mazda 6 brakes are no longer a weakness on this car and actually are over powering in auto x where i need more track time to learn braking points where im not slowed down too much or too little
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Old August 24th, 2009, 11:22 AM   #8
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thank you for that bit of info...
i wasnt 100% clear that i am going to pick a class...but more or less rip most of the car to bits and pieces...
the mazda 6 brakes are no longer a weakness on this car and actually are over powering in auto x where i need more track time to learn braking points where im not slowed down too much or too little
hi!!!

sounds like you are going to have a good time!!! you are going to turbo it, and run in either Time Attack or Solo I, right? what is your estimated power vs your estimated weight?

reason i ask, is about the brakes; i think the mazda 6 conversion will be satisfactory if you are under 300 whp and at or under 2500 lbs and you are doing Solo I or Time Attack.... when doing Solo I or T/A, you can do a few hot laps, and then take a few slower laps to ease the load on the brakes and let them release some heat before pounding on them again.

if you decide to do what i do, which is all out door-to-door road racing, then you might want to reconsider your brake package. a car with your power, and your weight is going to really be very hard on those 6 brakes up front during a long race (we have 40 min races at NASA here on the east coast). 300+ whp combined with 2500 lbs is going to burn them down; you'll want larger (especially thicker) front rotors to handle the heat, preferrably with dual piston calipers to spread the load on the pad).

my other 'really fast' roadrace car is a 95 Honda hatch EG racecar with a k20a2 swap with Greddy turbo (325 whp). it weighs 2170 with me in it. it is right now a time attack only car, because the brakes won't last 25 minutes of hard racing without burning to the ground. the brake kit i have on there right now is Prelude VTEC front rotors (11.3" dia) with Legend GS dual piston calipers. works amazingly well for the first 10-15 minutes of all out running; but then the heat builds and builds and builds and burns it all down. i run a full on custom ducting kit, and the best possible race compound pads.

good luck! have fun, and enjoy the build, and be safe out there!!!!
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Old August 24th, 2009, 11:36 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dan [Sac] View Post
1) Set the next 2-3 hours apart

2) Lock your door(s), turn off the cell phone and chatting services

3) Read this thread on how you should proceed in building a competitive machine

4) Cry

5) Start doing it.

top link that very good read!
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Old August 24th, 2009, 12:18 PM   #10
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The MX6/PGT has a tough time fitting into any class, stock or otherwise. In Street Tire it's too heavy for the Civics, in STX it's still to heavy because the civics can compete in there as well, but now it's also underpowered compared to the WRX.

Locally it can be competitive in many classes. Nationally I've had mixed success so far. Pro Solo's are out. Tours are where this car has an advantage. With very little in-class competition I placed 1st at the Farmington Tour, and recently in Vail with real competition I was in 3rd after day one, and bumped to 4th/9 on day two by a very very well prepared and driven '93 325i.

It's safe to say I'm solidly upper mid-pack in STX. But as long as the WRX is around, and Civics can play in STX, I'll have a tough time getting in the trophies at nationals.

Which is exactly why it will be so rewarding when I do.

Back to your car, do you want a fun car, or do you want a competitive car? Think about this before you answer, also ask yourself are you happy with a very fun car that's horribly un-competitive in it's class, because with your plans you are heading there VERY quickly.

If yes, strip and build away. If no, read the rules, look at the class competition, ask lots of questions and choose carefully.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 07:45 PM   #11
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I need to respond to this post, but I am 'Le tired' so I'm going to take a nap 'Then fire the missiles!" And get something to eat.

(One a quick note the 2nd gen brakes with - Braided lines, Dot4 fluid, Racing pads and Cooling ducting will be more than adequate for the job.)
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Old August 26th, 2009, 09:28 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dan [Sac] View Post
1) Set the next 2-3 hours apart

2) Lock your door(s), turn off the cell phone and chatting services

3) Read this thread on how you should proceed in building a competitive machine

4) Cry

5) Start doing it.

I just did # 3 and 4 LOL
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Old August 26th, 2009, 11:24 PM   #13
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(One a quick note the 2nd gen brakes with - Braided lines, Dot4 fluid, Racing pads and Cooling ducting will be more than adequate for the job.)
I concur...And yet people still insist on HUUUGE brakes, even for the street. :p

Aywhoo, have you got pics of the ducting, I could use the ideas to build my own in the near future.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 11:56 PM   #14
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I would say my 11.8" brakes never let me down during AutoX(even on 1.2 mile course) or street, my stock cross drilled/slotted....... well lets just say Im glad I upgraded.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 12:10 AM   #15
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I would say my 11.8" brakes never let me down during AutoX(even on 1.2 mile course) or street, my stock cross drilled/slotted....... well lets just say Im glad I upgraded.
To that I counter with stock rotors, no ducting, and Hawk Blue's on the 4.5mile course at MMP, the most severe braking, 120-75mph braking on the front strait, 105-50mph shortly after, and a video:
http://user.streetfire.net/video/Ful...ler_194146.htm
3:33 lap BTW.

There are several reasons the stock brakes can suck, all of which can and will apply to any BBK if not addressed.

BUT this thread isn't about brakes alone. Stock is great, bigger has it's purpose. YMMV.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 06:15 AM   #16
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hi!

way back in the day, i won a G-Stock autox championship in the philly region SCCA in my probe. the car was stock, other than Tokico Illumina shocks, BFG R1 tires, and fresh fluids. even the brake pads were oem stock. i had ZERO brake related problems during autox; there just isn't enough time, or speed to get that kind of heat into them during an autox.

the original poster explained that he planned on 'boosting on MS'. if this is the case, and he also plans on doing some 'Solo I' track style events, then he better get the absolute biggest front brakes on that car that he can fit! he will have incredible straight line speeds, and even if he goes nuts trying to reduce weight, having a full cage and all the safety gear and him in the car will have the 'ready to race' weight somewhere between 2500 and 2600 lbs. he will need BIG front brakes!

here's a clip of my 'fast' car at Watkins Glen; it weighs 2170 lbs with me in it; in this clip, i was running 7 lbs of boost on the K20a2 (around 260 whp). i was running the biggest brakes that i can fit under the 15x7 wheel package that i run; those brakes consist of Prelude VTEC front rotors (11" dia) and Legend GS dual piston front calipers, running Raybestos ST43 pads. when i turn up the boost a bit (such as i might due during a 3 lap timed time attack session) the power jumps up to 320 whp. the brakes will last about 15 mins turning max laps at max power setting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...05476322906520

IF he builds it as he described in his first post, and runs it on track at 300+ whp and 2500+ lbs, using the mazda 6 brakes, then he will suffer from brake problems (assuming that he drives it truly 'hard').

i am an accomplished racer, and instructor, and i will tell you that the stock, oem 2nd gen brakes (race prepped with ducts, and good fluid, and good race pads) WILL NOT HOLD UP consistently in a 40 minute race at the typical tracks we race at here on the east coast. i tried it for years, and the brakes just would not stay consistent. i went thru literally a set (or more!) of pads and rotors every weekend. i melted and ruined MANY sets of oem calipers (and cracked untold number of rotors).

it is SO nice to be able to be 1000% sure that the brakes will be exactly the same at the end of a 40 min race (or a 4 hour race!) as they were on the first lap. ZERO change in brake feel, or effort. ZERO sponginess. just perfect braking every time you reach for the pedal. and its so nice to have a set of pads last 6 or 7 weekends (i am still on the same set from the first race of the year in feb!). rotors now last 2+ race years, instead of 1 weekend (what a savings in $$$ and headaches that is!).

i am not saying 'you can't track your probe without a brake upgrade'; far from it; i tracked mine for a LONG time on the oem setup! i'm just saying that it can be SO much better, and you can be SO much faster over an entire session! i am also saying this -- 'if you are gonna boost that KL, and run it on track, then you better get the biggest, baddest, racetested front brakes that you can afford, cause you are going to need them!'.

oh, one more thing -- nothings sucks more that going 155+ mph (redline in 6th in my honda is 158 mph, and i can hit that on most front straights on the east coast tracks around here) into a brake zone, and having the brakes initially bite hard, and as you are slowing (this typically happens about 10-15 mins into a session with the honda) having the brakes sploooooge into a mushy pedal, and the car fail to slow as it should! not fun, and not cool!!!!
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Old August 27th, 2009, 08:15 AM   #17
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Good post todd. We really need to get some stickies going on these lil race tips for T/A,PT-E,STX,etc. That way,what members can expect/need to know will be right there. As for myself,I noticed that Redline T/A has a class for 2.0L FWD cars,N/A. The problem being,once again,lighter Hondas. Makes it hard to choose when you're up against lighter cars with more swap possibilities. So,like Smoky Yunick,ever advantage must be considered. That's where info like this comes in,& ready access to it.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 01:29 PM   #18
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Indeed, good point about being boosted. Higher speeds will necessitate more braking power.

And FWIW, if all I were doing is track days you bet your arse I'd put on bigger brakes, lasting more than a couple really intense days of track use would be the biggest benefit. But, like most track days are an occasional thing, maybe 4-5 a year at most, in which case a mechanically sound stock setup with great pads is sufficient.

And for Solo, as Todd said, stockers are plenty. Same for the street. More than enough braking, and less drivetrain mass to accelerate.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 07:04 PM   #19
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Lets see where to start....
ok here

through this end of summer i will develop a game plan.
as to which class in scca solo 1 i will run before i go boosted.
but im pretty dead set on adding the roll cage/along with some other upgrades and take offs
i may take off the m6 brakes until i hit-up a road course and re-convert to the stockers for auto x sake.
I was reading sports car mag. and seen that the scca want more production class cars which limited street trim like the rx7 that was been shown. stock exterior minus lex'on windows and a fiberglass hood and flared wheel wells.
Scca said if your car make and model doesnt fall into a production class to contact them and they will find a spot or make a new class to see fit. as they always want to broaden the class ranges.

as for boostin goals...stock motor/block mil s injectors ~7-8 psi to not 300whp but a mid to high 200.

i have a trans in the shed wait for an m-factory lsd.
and fidanza waiting for install
in 2010 the car should be 50 percent set for a good competition in auto x...as this season i was in the middle of the fsp and lower end of ST
next year will be much different...but only time will tell

ideally the goal is to be race ready by 2011 and boosted... and possibly a wheel to wheel race or to...


there is so much info in this thread for people looking into auto racing it should be archived or stickied

keep the info a coming
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Old August 28th, 2009, 10:01 AM   #20
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Lets see where to start....
ok here

through this end of summer i will develop a game plan.
as to which class in scca solo 1 i will run before i go boosted.
but im pretty dead set on adding the roll cage/along with some other upgrades and take offs
i may take off the m6 brakes until i hit-up a road course and re-convert to the stockers for auto x sake.
I was reading sports car mag. and seen that the scca want more production class cars which limited street trim like the rx7 that was been shown. stock exterior minus lex'on windows and a fiberglass hood and flared wheel wells.
Scca said if your car make and model doesnt fall into a production class to contact them and they will find a spot or make a new class to see fit. as they always want to broaden the class ranges.

as for boostin goals...stock motor/block mil s injectors ~7-8 psi to not 300whp but a mid to high 200.

i have a trans in the shed wait for an m-factory lsd.
and fidanza waiting for install
in 2010 the car should be 50 percent set for a good competition in auto x...as this season i was in the middle of the fsp and lower end of ST
next year will be much different...but only time will tell

ideally the goal is to be race ready by 2011 and boosted... and possibly a wheel to wheel race or to...


there is so much info in this thread for people looking into auto racing it should be archived or stickied

keep the info a coming
As I mentioned earlier,all this info should be stickied. There's a lot of good info from these members' real-world experiences...
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Old August 28th, 2009, 01:04 PM   #21
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One statement raises a big red flag with me:
Quote:
Scca said if your car make and model doesnt fall into a production class to contact them and they will find a spot or make a new class to see fit. as they always want to broaden the class ranges.
From a road-racing perspective, "finding a spot" will put you in a regional catch-all class like SPO or IT-E. Either class is usually populated with "don't really have a good spot for it" cars, which can range wildly from an oddball car that isn't classed, or some monster full-out race car from another racing series that doesn't fit an SCCA class. It kinda sucks to have your competition be something that you simply have no chance against. It makes it tough to drive yourself to improve, as you don't have a real target to shoot for.

The other statement about making a new class to fit - the SCCA is a BIG organization with a bunch of classes. It generally takes a year or two minimum to get a new class organized, and depending on how well it's subscribed, it may never actually get off the ground.

With your talk of forced induction, you're likely going to end up in some class where you're going to have a heck of a time competing in a Probe/MX-6.

You're not going to like this, but I'm going to say it anyway...if you want to RACE (not just drive on track and have fun), the Probe/MX-6 isn't a very good choice for SCCA. Todd has proven that you can certainly be successful with that car in NASA, but he's not exactly some half-@ssed driver either. He has lots of talent and experience.

For the money that you'll spend to develop the car, not to mention the time, you would likely be much better served buying a car that's already built for a class. Since the amateur racing season will be finishing up in the next month or so, there are TONS of built cars coming on to the market. You can find them on nasaforums, sccaforums, racingjunk, improvedtouring, and lots of other racing forums.

A wise man once said "If you want to make a small fortune in racing, you start with a large one."

I'm absolutely a racing enabler - I only do the occasional autocross, track schools, and 24hrs of LeMons, but I always try to encourage someone who is interested. You are clearly interested, but I think you are taking a very tough path.

One other thing I haven't heard you mention is if you have a tow vehicle and trailer. If you don't, you may want to start thinking about it soon. Driving a gutted and caged car on the street is tiring, deafening, and likely less safe than a car in normal street trim. In a car with a full cage, your head isn't all that far away from a cage bar at any time. If you're in an accident on the street, your un-helmeted head is likely going to smack something pretty hard on the cage.
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Old August 30th, 2009, 01:46 AM   #22
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Wise words Tom.

Sad but true, in both NASA and SCCA it's tough to have a competitive MX6/PGT in any class. However, whatever class you do end up in, you're bound to have a LOT of fun. So long as you don't mind loosing to the dominant car in the class.

One example, there's a couple guys locally in STX that run a very well set up WRX. Three times I've hopped in the car for a fun run and one ONE lap beaten my car's time by anywhere from 1-2 seconds depending on course length.

BUT, I still have more fun driving my car.
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Old September 2nd, 2009, 02:50 PM   #23
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We've thrown a lot at you here, Slinky...what are your thoughts?

I'll muddy the waters further. I've been through this with several friends - you will learn a LOT about race cars with either path, but it's different with each method.

Personally, my experience is with building a couple street/track cars, and 2 full 24 hrs of LeMons builds. These are all "from scratch builds." None of these are full out race car builds, but the LeMons cars are getting close.

When you buy a pre-built car, you generally run into some stuff that wasn't done well/done half @ssed, some things that are just worn out, somethings that just don't fit you (Seat, roll cage, etc.), and somethings that aren't fully to the limits of the class You'll see ads for "turnkey racecars." BS. 99% of the time, any race car is going to require some small fixes at the very least.

A couple of years back, a good friend bought an '84 Porsche 944 to run in NASA's 944 cup class - it's a very limited prep class with a lot of competition. I bought a 20% stake in the car because I had planned to get my comp license so I could do enduros with him. It was the first non-street legal, full roll cage, "real" race car for either of us. We quickly learned that there was a LOT to do on this car to make it race ready, reliable, and somewhat competitive. We had to strip out a bunch of remaining interior bits, remove the sound deadening, and then fight fuel injection issues. Once we had the car up and racing, it became obvious that the car just wasn't competitive. It was a little down on power, it needed the short 5th gear, and it needed an LSD. He ran a few races to get his feet wet in the series, and promptly bought a much more competitive 944. We learned a lot of lessons with that first car.

If you shop well, you won't have the teething pains we had with that first car, but understand that you WILL have to make some changes to the car to make it work for you.
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Last edited by hpde-autox : September 2nd, 2009 at 03:31 PM.
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Old September 2nd, 2009, 06:21 PM   #24
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Ok lots of information, I have been quite but I saw some stuff and just wanted to make some comments and observations.

This goes for all new driver or inspiring drivers.

Ok here it comes.

If you have the passion and want to do this. Then do it !

Don't let the nay sayers make you think twice about your passion. There is a show called Car Crazy. That show is all about us car nuts. We don't really care about what other people think we just do it. Because we have the drive and the passion. Ok with that said.

I commend everyone to use the 2nd gen probe for racing. The sleek body style light weight and natural balanced handling are just incredible features to have in a race car. Dmark101's car in relative stock trim running the TEIN coil overs handles incredible. It corners better than my car. The engine can be boosted but I have to comment here. A boosted car in racing conditions is much more upkeep. Boosted cars create a lot of heat. So extra consideration will have to be worked out to help that. If you run non-boost there is a class in SCCA for you to run. If you run Boost then you will run in ITE. ITE has a lot of varied cars in there. Also SCCA RS is another class you can run in.

SCCA is not big on creating new classes for cars. But that being said, we did recently get a new class that allows the older SCCA Pro Racing Touring cars to run with Club Racers. So your best bet is build a car to suit your needs.

Boost is great for drag racing, but I don't recommend it for road racing. Just my opinion.

HPDE-AutoX - "One other thing I haven't heard you mention is if you have a tow vehicle and trailer. If you don't, you may want to start thinking about it soon. Driving a gutted and caged car on the street is tiring, deafening, and likely less safe than a car in normal street trim. In a car with a full cage, your head isn't all that far away from a cage bar at any time. If you're in an accident on the street, your un-helmeted head is likely going to smack something pretty hard on the cage."

I have a problem with this statement. Driving a race car on the street is fun but attracts a lot of attention. It does not make me any more tired driving it than anyother car. Yes you don't have air conditioning or plush seating but its not tiring. If you have a good Racing seat you will really enjoy the handling of the car and the comfort of support the racing seat provides.
If you get into an accident - you WILL BE FAR SAFER in your race car than a street car. 1. You have a Roll cage 2. you have a safety harness 3. you have a fire system. 4. your door bars will protect you from side impacts.
An un helmeted head may strike a bar of your cage, BUT! all your bars around YOU must be covered with impact padding. Thus if you do come in contact with a bar your head WILL NOT impact with metal tubing.

Other than those things I like that stuff you have been sharing HPDE-AutoX.

On a final comment, if you like you can build to several classes. Find the most strict one and build to that class. Knowing this you will be able to run in less strict classes as well. I was thinking about using the 93PGT for SCCA ITS because I know it will outperform in handling the current cars in that class. The power will be the key factor. Since we can remove a lot of weight from the car it is a good class to take a look at. You would not get smoked in that class running a KLZE or DE motor with prep.

The next step from club racing to National racing would be take a 4 cly 2nd gen Probe and run it in E-Production. (That's my future plans).


I say if you want to run a Ford Probe and represent the community. DO IT. I think it would attack more people, especially if you start doing well at it. You know that what ever class you run in, if you run a probe you have the whole community behind you.

Take care, have fun, and follow your dreams!
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Old September 2nd, 2009, 08:46 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Racy-Stacey View Post
HPDE-AutoX - "One other thing I haven't heard you mention is if you have a tow vehicle and trailer. If you don't, you may want to start thinking about it soon. Driving a gutted and caged car on the street is tiring, deafening, and likely less safe than a car in normal street trim. In a car with a full cage, your head isn't all that far away from a cage bar at any time. If you're in an accident on the street, your un-helmeted head is likely going to smack something pretty hard on the cage."

I have a problem with this statement. Driving a race car on the street is fun but attracts a lot of attention. It does not make me any more tired driving it than anyother car. Yes you don't have air conditioning or plush seating but its not tiring. If you have a good Racing seat you will really enjoy the handling of the car and the comfort of support the racing seat provides.
If you get into an accident - you WILL BE FAR SAFER in your race car than a street car. 1. You have a Roll cage 2. you have a safety harness 3. you have a fire system. 4. your door bars will protect you from side impacts.
An un helmeted head may strike a bar of your cage, BUT! all your bars around YOU must be covered with impact padding. Thus if you do come in contact with a bar your head WILL NOT impact with metal tubing.

We will have to agree to disagree on these, I guess. Stacey is much more active of a racer than I am, I will freely concede, but I think I'm pretty well founded in my opinions based on research and personal experience.

I live in MD, and even though Summit Pt. is closest to me, I run more often at VIR. VIR is approx a 5 hr drive each way. 5 hours in a gutted car with no A/C in the middle of the summer is a killer. The drive down sucks, but it's the drive back at the end of the track weekend is much worse. IMO, it's far more tiring to make that kind of a trip in a full out race car.

As far as the seat goes, the brand/model of the seat matters a lot for comfort. The last street car I had with race seats in it (Miata), I used Corbeau Forzas. These SUCKED on the street. The seatback angle was extremely upright, the seat had zero lumbar support, and I was never comfortable for more than about an hour. They were perfectly acceptable for 30 min of track time, but as a dual purpose seat...no. If you're running a better seat (Sparco Evo, Sparco Rev, Recaro SPG, Racetech, etc.) you may have a much better opinion of long drives in a fixed back seat.

On the head to cage bar impact discussion - While it is perfectly legal to drive a car with a full cage on the street, I don't believe it's a safe practice.
The proper FIA "hard" padding that you're required to run now is designed to work with a helmeted head. It's pretty d@mn hard by itself, and an impact with an unhelmeted head is going do some damage. If you are still running the old style soft padding, that stuff is nearly useless in a crash. It compresses much to easily to provide any real buffer to the bar in a crash event. Without a fully functional noggin, we're not much good if the rest of the body fares well in an impact.

Roll bars in street cars, on the other hand are OK if you have the proper equipment. If you have fixed back seats, or a seatback brace and adjustable seats, you're pretty safe. If you're running regular, adjustable OEM seats with no brace, you're pretty screwed if the seatback breaks. A good friend of mine had a nasty concussion from an incident where his seatback broke from a rear impact, and his helmeted head smacked the roll bar.

I'm getting ready for a 24 hrs of Lemons race in a couple of weeks, and I'm fighting an internal battle about a head and neck brace. I've used a stiff foam neck collar for years, but the more I do this...the more I really think I should pony up for a HANS, Hutchens Device, Defender, or one of the other braces. I don't have the budget to do this for the upcoming race, but I'll likely go with a H&N brace when I buy my SA2010 helmet.

Be safe first, be fast 2nd.

An ancillary discussion to this is SNELL SA/M/K helmet ratings. SA (Special applications) helmets are spec'd for auto racing because the SA standard means the helmet is engineered to withstand multiple impacts, e.g. your head banging around during a rollover. They also must have a Nomex liner. K (Karting) helmets are designed for the same impact, but the liner isn't fire resistant. The M (Motorcycle) helmets are designed essentially for single impacts, and usually have cotton or cotton/poly liners.
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