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Old November 18th, 2017, 01:39 PM   #1
Greg 94 PGT
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Little help with MS

I've got a few little issues I need help figuring out how to fix.

Cold Start:
When I start the car it starts fine, its just that it revs really high and then slowly comes down as it warms up.

Hunting Idle:
This is new, it only started happening the past 4 times I took the car out. Once the cars warms up, the idle goes up and down (like a bad TPS on a stock car). Literally, nothing has been touched recently to cause this, so I'm clueless on this one. Figured maybe its a setting that needs adjustment. but I'm not sure why it would start out of the blue. When this happened I attempted to adjust fuel table but it didn't change anything. Even tried Autotune and that didn't help.

RPM read differently (stock tach and TunerStudio)
This I noticed today. The Tunerstudio tach reads about 700rpm higher than the stock PGT tach.

Info about the car:
-94 PGT
-MS2 v3.0
-Colipacks
-Stock IAC (plugged in and coolant lines are hooked up like normal)
-GM IAT instead of VAF

I took a datalog, but I'm not sure how to post it for anyone to download it. I looked around but haven't been able to find any instructions on how or where to post/upload it.

Edit:
Nevermind, I found a file hosting site
Here's the Datalog - http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=...41658436013394
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Old November 18th, 2017, 04:07 PM   #2
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The tach issue is the stock tach being off (most peoples are the same), for cold start look at crank to run taper time and IAC initial values. For hunting idle restore your old VE settings as they were before as you could have made the issue worse, im on my mobile but ill check the log when i get a chance and let you know what i think it might be.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 04:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoker100 View Post
The tach issue is the stock tach being off (most peoples are the same), for cold start look at crank to run taper time and IAC initial values. For hunting idle restore your old VE settings as they were before as you could have made the issue worse, im on my mobile but ill check the log when i get a chance and let you know what i think it might be.
That's what is odd, it started out of the blue, so I played with changing the fuel values, but nothing helped, so I already put them back to where they were but it still does it. That's why I'm not sure why it started in the first place. Could the stock TPS be the issue? Maybe its going bad? With the MS can I still adjust the stock TPS using the fan method (stock pcm still controls the fans), or would adjusting the TPS not do anything since the MS has its own TPS configuration method.
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Old December 12th, 2017, 02:26 PM   #4
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hey, where did my post go?

Anyways, Greg, you are going into overrun mode over and over, making it seem like your car is trying to catch it's idle, but it's not.

Your MAP threshold value for fuel overrun is way too high. Mine is somewhere around 20kpa or so, it looks like yours is at 27kpa. So your log shows that around 2000rpm, it cuts fuel just trying to drop rpm to idle, and then when overrun is off, it adds fuel, and rpms jump slightly, but then it gets back into overrun, and it does it over and over and over.
it has nothing to do with your fuel table. Change those overrun values so that it will only cut fuel when you're decelerating in gear or at higher rpm, and you'll be just fine.
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Old December 12th, 2017, 03:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spada View Post
hey, where did my post go?

Anyways, Greg, you are going into overrun mode over and over, making it seem like your car is trying to catch it's idle, but it's not.

Your MAP threshold value for fuel overrun is way too high. Mine is somewhere around 20kpa or so, it looks like yours is at 27kpa. So your log shows that around 2000rpm, it cuts fuel just trying to drop rpm to idle, and then when overrun is off, it adds fuel, and rpms jump slightly, but then it gets back into overrun, and it does it over and over and over.
it has nothing to do with your fuel table. Change those overrun values so that it will only cut fuel when you're decelerating in gear or at higher rpm, and you'll be just fine.
Haha, your post is in another thread. I was looking through other posts and I was thinking is this in response to my thread? But it wasn't here, so I figured the other guy was named Greg too. Put the beer down and focus!

Thanks though, I'll look into that too.

I'm past the overwhelmed stage of having MS, now I'm just in the confused stage


Update
Okay idles nice and smooth now, once warmed up, just high (1800rpms)

Good guess, my MAP threshold value was 28kpa
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Old December 12th, 2017, 06:05 PM   #6
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Start by adjusting your idle screw. 1800 is way too high.
Also, upload your MSQ file. Let me know what version your hardware and software is so i can open it correctly.

But now its time to get your idle pwm values. Seriosuly, it takes a long time to tune idle and cold startups and warmups.
However, it takes me only a couple 15 minute drives to vet the whole map dialed in using a wideband.

---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

If i get idling at 800rpm, you owe me a 65mm tb.
Lol, jk.
Back to the beer.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 04:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spada View Post
Start by adjusting your idle screw. 1800 is way too high.
Also, upload your MSQ file. Let me know what version your hardware and software is so i can open it correctly.

But now its time to get your idle pwm values. Seriosuly, it takes a long time to tune idle and cold startups and warmups.
However, it takes me only a couple 15 minute drives to vet the whole map dialed in using a wideband.

---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

If i get idling at 800rpm, you owe me a 65mm tb.
Lol, jk.
Back to the beer.
I have the idle screw on the TB turned all the way down already.

I did the whole pwm idle valve thing a while back and it helped, but I can't say with 100% certainty that I did it correctly I'm very tempted to say it has to do with the IAC either itself or its calibration. But I'm open to trying the pwm values again and anything else you suggest.

I'll agree to that 65mm TB deal, "if" I have anymore. I have no idea what parts/pieces I have left
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Old December 13th, 2017, 04:30 PM   #8
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Here is my MSQ - Current Tune

-MS2 v3.0

- software version - if you mean firmware version I don't know. Where would I find that?

I think I need to adjust my IAC pwm open and closed duty cycles. But I can't find anything on how to do the Idle Valve Test or if there's another way.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 05:06 PM   #9
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dont worry about the idle test, just reduce the minimum value.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 08:12 AM   #10
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yeah, wow, your minimum values are way too high, and your idle valve frequency seems wrong. Isn't it supposed to be 200hz?

a few minutes of playing around with your values, and you're idle will be lower.
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Old December 15th, 2017, 10:50 AM   #11
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Alright, I'm out of town for a couple weeks, but when I get back I'll work on that and update you guys on any changes.

Thanks guys
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Old December 18th, 2017, 12:50 PM   #12
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Just to throw it out there, ive run into an issue in the past where mine started idling high once in a while and eventually stayed high. Turned out it was some pieces of carbon had fouled up the IAC valve and causing the plunger to stick. Cleaned it out and its been great for the past 5 years.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 05:34 PM   #13
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Just to throw it out there, ive run into an issue in the past where mine started idling high once in a while and eventually stayed high. Turned out it was some pieces of carbon had fouled up the IAC valve and causing the plunger to stick. Cleaned it out and its been great for the past 5 years.
Okay, I'll keep that in mind.

What did you clean it with? Brake cleaner?
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Old December 28th, 2017, 06:33 PM   #14
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I just used regular carburetor cleaner. I also hooked up some wires to the solenoid and arced it a bunch of times with 12v to get it to bounce around. Dont leave power hooked up too long or it could burn up.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 05:26 PM   #15
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dont worry about the idle test, just reduce the minimum value.
Okay, I'm back in town and ready to start playing with these IAC values
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Old January 4th, 2018, 05:37 PM   #16
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yeah, wow, your minimum values are way too high, and your idle valve frequency seems wrong. Isn't it supposed to be 200hz?

a few minutes of playing around with your values, and you're idle will be lower.
I have no idea what the stock IAC hz value is.

But in PWM Idle Settings I just tried to adjust the "Valve Frequency 30.5hz * This Setting" box to 200hz.

But it gave me an error message saying "Valve Frequency 30.5hz * This Setting Value of 200 is too high. Must be below 15hz"

Currently its at 15hz

Can anyone confirm what this should be set to for a stock iac (well ZE IAC if it matters)
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Old January 4th, 2018, 06:27 PM   #17
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Results:

In "Closed Loop Idle PID Settings" I did the following

Min Duty For PID % = 3.1
RPM With Valve Closed = 200
RPM With Valve Open = 3000


Questions:
-Every time I hit "Burn", the idle raises and hangs for 3-4 seconds. Is that normal?

-When I blip the throttle to 3k-3500rpms, the idle hangs at 2300 rpms for 6-7 seconds, then takes about 5 seconds to get down to 1300rpms +/- (<-- whatever its idle'ing at) - Edit: this lessened after changing PWM Idle Settings > Valve Frequency to 8 Was that the right thing to adjust? Is this setting right? (tried going to 4, but heard a buzzing, so I changed it back to 8

-After I blip the throttle I see the IAC position gauge goes to 128 steps (as the idle hangs at 2300) and slowly reduces to 8 steps as the idle falls. Should I be addressing something else to fix this response time?

-Should I be adjusting the "PID Controller Gains"? Current settings are:
Proportional Gain - 150
Integral Gain - 50
Derivative Gain - 20

With the above settings I'm idle'ing @ 1410 rpms

Not really sure what else I should be adjusting.

Can you guys see anything else in my tune that's way off?
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Old January 22nd, 2018, 08:54 AM   #18
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Valve frequency is way off.
You have to set the value to 50. This makes the valve frequency 200Hz since, since that is 10,000 divided by 50. Wait, i'm used to megasquirt 1, so whatever gets you to have a 200Hz IAC frequency, do that.

You shouldn't have your IAC do anything at all until it gets down to maybe 1,100 rpm.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 07:10 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Valve frequency is way off.
You have to set the value to 50. This makes the valve frequency 200Hz since, since that is 10,000 divided by 50. Wait, i'm used to megasquirt 1, so whatever gets you to have a 200Hz IAC frequency, do that.

You shouldn't have your IAC do anything at all until it gets down to maybe 1,100 rpm.
Okay, I'll work on that this weekend. I hear buzzing when the key is on, but the car is off. I figured its the IAC and I know that shouldn't be doing anything at that time.

As a little update (with a little back story), I bought a lot of parts from Jordan's (Shaodome) car, including his janz99 top feed fuel rail and some injectors. I asked him at the time what size the injectors were, so when I put them on I'll know what to set MS up for, he texted my "they're 550".

So when I installed the rail and injectors a few months ago, I punched in "550cc" injectors into MS. Well, I was suspicious on the the mysterious fuel smell I seemed to get after parking the car in the garage, so I figured I'd research the injectors a little.

Siemens 3172 injectors seem to have a lot of various information about them from different for sale posts and threads online from 550 cc to 600cc, but I found a retailer that I felt safer in believing. They were listing them as 55lb (not 550cc), 55lb turns out to be 577cc +/-. I'm guessing either Jordans phone auto-corrected or I caught him while he was busy and he just mistyped 550 instead of 55. Either way, that part is sorted out now (and the fuel smell in the garage is gone).

Because once I punched those numbers into the MS the idle felt much better and lowered itself down to a reasonable level, right now I'm roughly 1200rpms, but I'll look into the advice you just listed and see what happens.
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 02:58 PM   #20
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Valve frequency is way off.
You have to set the value to 50. This makes the valve frequency 200Hz since, since that is 10,000 divided by 50. Wait, i'm used to megasquirt 1, so whatever gets you to have a 200Hz IAC frequency, do that.

You shouldn't have your IAC do anything at all until it gets down to maybe 1,100 rpm.
Okay, so I think I found the right section for this. I went to "PWM Idle Settings" then found a line that said "Valve Frequency 30.5hz * this setting", and it was set to 8

So if I'm interpreting this right, its saying the setting was at 244hz (30.5 x 8), so I did some calculating and I went with 7 which would bring it to 213.5. I was considering 6, but that was 183 and figured that was further away from 200.

I tried to go 6.5 but it just rounds it up to 7.

Should I go to 6, so its under 200, or do I just get as close as I can?

Also, did I even do the right thing?

Nothing seems to have changed though. Still have the idle around 1350 and it hangs when I let off the throttle for 5-6 seconds (around 2.3k). It also shoots up and hangs the same way every time I burn a change in TS, not sure if that's normal or not

Btw, I unplugged the IAC to see what happens and it dropped the idle about 150rpms to 1190

Thoughts/suggestions?

Edit:
Also what kind of numbers am I even shooting for on the Idle open Duty and Idle closed duty %? Because I've been playing with those, but I'm clueless on what I'm doing and nothing I do seems to affect the idle.

Today I started with an open duty % of 50 and a closed of 19.9. I am at 14.5 open and 3.5 closed right now and nothing is different

Or should the Open Duty % be lower than the Closed Duty % numbers?
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 09:41 PM   #21
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it will probably just change the tone of the IAC changing the frequency, i have found when doing it going down in frequency means your initial table needs to be reduced slightly too (if you have one i cant remember). short answer, it shouldnt change anything especially the high idle but its good to have it set correctly.

IAC shut should REALLY drop the RPM's otherwise the IAC cannot control idle. If your idle screw isnt all the way out (turn it down) then you have a VAC leak IMO. Id reset those other open/closed duty settings first and have a look at a vac leak!
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Old February 3rd, 2018, 06:18 AM   #22
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it will probably just change the tone of the IAC changing the frequency, i have found when doing it going down in frequency means your initial table needs to be reduced slightly too (if you have one i cant remember). short answer, it shouldnt change anything especially the high idle but its good to have it set correctly.
Yeah I got a humming sound coming from the air filter after changing the frequency, thought it was weird.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stoker100 View Post
IAC shut should REALLY drop the RPM's otherwise the IAC cannot control idle. If your idle screw isnt all the way out (turn it down) then you have a VAC leak IMO. Id reset those other open/closed duty settings first and have a look at a vac leak!
Right, but what do I "reset" them to?? I have no clue what the initial settings should be. What numbers are good for a stock IAC?

Btw, Idle screw is tightened all the way down.

I figured before I start looking for a vacuum leak I should make sure my IAC settings are right.

Otherwise, I'm spending time looking for something that may not even exist. I really feel its something with my settings, but I don't have any idea what the settings should be, not even a starting point, or as I mentioned if my IAC Open Duty % should be higher or lower than my IAC Closed Duty %

If I knew what that information was I could at least adjust those things accordingly and determine if it gets any better
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Old February 3rd, 2018, 08:43 PM   #23
stoker100
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Reset the settings to what you had them at before you started having this problem (with the exception of the idle valve frequency. My understanding is when the IAC is unplugged its air flow path is closed leaving the minimum amount of air possible to flow through the TB with the exception of the cold start flow path and idle screw. If you have the coolant hoses connected to the TB then the cold start path should work fine (its a wax that melts and pushes a rod, pretty reliable), with the air screw all the way in little to no air will flow through the TB at all meaning you shouldn't be at 11XX rpm but more like 400rpm.
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Old February 6th, 2018, 01:49 AM   #24
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I had another look, your idle timing is at 23deg, pull it back to about 17deg and see if that helps. Also take another NEW log and upload it along with the tune. looking at the old log you are hitting decel fuel cut, reduce the min vac to <24kpa. I still think its a vac leak but cant tell much more without a new log.
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Old February 7th, 2018, 04:41 AM   #25
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After I posted my last post, I thought about it and decided to start from scratch with my original file. It's funny you mentioned it too. I figured I was chasing my tail after figuring out my injector issue and having made so many changes before that I figured it would be better to start from scratch with the proper #'s there first.

Then added in the changes you guys had mentioned in this thread (and my injectors sizing).

I was able to get a much better idle and the car idles around 1075 right now.

But I will address those suggestions you just made too.

As of now we took it out over the weekend and all in all it drove great, I had "autotune" going to smooth things out along the way.

Thanks, I'll update things once I have a chance to get in the car again
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