1994 Ford probe gt build thread

[P1P]

not to get into a back and forth debate

1) Can you make 500 whp with 550cc injector?

YES

2) Is it a good long term ideal?

NO

Here's why not: In order to make 500whp with 550cc injectors you have to run you fuel pressure above 60 percent or your duty cycle between 95 to a 100%.

The ideal duty cycle for injectors is to keep them below 85% (preferably 80%).

running injectors at a high duty all the time will eventually fail.


ideal fuel pressure for a turbo car range from 42 to 47psi

so lets use that math

550cc injectors
fuel pressure 47
duty cycle 90%

should support 490 @crank 417 wheel so in a ideal situation you are short 83whp to your 500whp goal


so what do you really need to be safe

ideal duty cycle 85%
fuel pressure 47 (actually the fuel pressure could be lowered a little)
700cc injectors is what you actually need to safely run 500whp


i suggested the 850cc because it was a better long term option than the 550's.

Is 850 more than you need?
YES but i would rather have more then not enough plus 850's give you room to grow a little 550's dont and with 550's its only a matter of time till they fail trying to support 500whp over time


Food for thought with any build: build a car for more than what you need or what your goal is it will last longer over time

you want 500whp then build the car to support 600whp

the problem i have seen with most PT builds is the people here do just enough to get by and never think of the long term that why either the builds die or the car does



so in closing can you get 500whp out of 550cc injectors? YES (i never said you couldnt)

is 550cc ideal for that power level? NO


on gas

ideal hp numbers not saying you cant get more

550cc - 394@whp 463@crank

700cc - 501@whp 589@crank

850cc - 604@whp 715@crank



---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Stanced4lyfe

I figure I would run the 850cc injectors to have more room for play.

best statement so far

[Stanced4lyfe]

Originally Posted by KLZE Porsche

850cc is serious overkill if you are only trying for 500 whp. It is always best to size your injectors correctly. The only people that I have ever sold 850cc injectors to were people running E85 and a few people with really big dreams that never came to fruition.

I believe people are running OK with E85 because I am guessing that it has a thicker consistency than typical high octane gas. I am not sure -but I know they have had success. But typically -you will not find 500 whp +/- 50 running 850cc injectors on a KL because -I believe it would make it harder to tune. I believe the 550 injectors give you plenty of room to play.

I would not listen to Honda guys when it comes to selecting your injectors. It is not a good side by side comparison. You should get some advise from those that have hit near 500 hp here on PT. Ask them what duty cycle they were running when hitting near 500 hp.

I could buy a ginormous centrifugal supercharger to put on my race car that is capable of producing 1000 whp. But in doing so -I may not even hit 500 whp. You should size things appropriately and the best source of sizing is those that have gone there/done that. Check with Dan Sac, Mac1 and a few others to find out what boost they were running to hit near 500 whp and what injectors/ duty cycle they were running.

That is your best source for accurate information -not some Honda guys that don't know Probes. That is just my .02. Of course -I could be wrong in my sizing assumptions since I have not hit near 500 whp yet myself. I get my info from reading posts here on PT and not a Honda website.

P.S. I believe the 550cc = 500whp & 850cc = 800whp is only a KL generic rule of thumb. I do not know if this same generic rule of thumb applies to other motors.

So what you are telling me is that I can make close to 600whp with 550cc injectors? That's why I bought the 850cc because I was aiming for as close to 600whp.

No E85 around me whatsoever! Highest is 93 octane and I plan on running the snow performance stage 2 meth kit to reach my 500whp + goals and hopefully make close to 600whp.

I wasn't comparing honda injector sizing from the Honda threads I was reviewing the turbo and different turbo sizing of the precision 6176e. Precision also posted on the Honda forums about the turbo.

I did read numerous of threads about what different people ran on there setups to get 500+ and it was different for just about every other car other than some general rule of the thumb threads.

Only reason why I was on the Honda forums was for the precision turbo not the injectors.

Any information from the OGs on here is always great. I have messaged and read threads from 500+ builds on here. I'm ultimately confused about the injectors. The turbo I know will work for sure this time.

Mfactory also emailed me back about the gears. I can still get the 500whp gears but can it handle more than that if I hit close to 600whp?

We will find out once I get the car done.

The replys to my thread is great. This makes me happy that I can get help from the OGs on here.

[KLZE Porsche]

I would listen to P1P -as he seems to know more about the math involved in the calculations. As I have said -I only know from what I have read/heard and not from experience.

I do know that when I was looking into injectors a long time back -and I didn't want to go too large -but yet have enough expansion to push the limit -I began looking at Injector Dynamic injectors because there is supposed to be something about them that allows you to push for more without having them too large to start with.

Perhaps someone will chime in with more info on them.

[P1P]

Originally Posted by KLZE Porsche

-I began looking at Injector Dynamic injectors because there is supposed to be something about them that allows you to push for more without having them too large to start with.

those are some good injectors

alot of Supra's and honda's are running them

[Stanced4lyfe]

Originally Posted by P1P

not to get into a back and forth debate

1) Can you make 500 whp with 550cc injector?

YES

2) Is it a good long term ideal?

NO

Here's why not: In order to make 500whp with 550cc injectors you have to run you fuel pressure above 60 percent or your duty cycle between 95 to a 100%.

The ideal duty cycle for injectors is to keep them below 85% (preferably 80%).

running injectors at a high duty all the time will eventually fail.


ideal fuel pressure for a turbo car range from 42 to 47psi

so lets use that math

550cc injectors
fuel pressure 47
duty cycle 90%

should support 490 @crank 417 wheel so in a ideal situation you are short 83whp to your 500whp goal


so what do you really need to be safe

ideal duty cycle 85%
fuel pressure 47 (actually the fuel pressure could be lowered a little)
700cc injectors is what you actually need to safely run 500whp


i suggested the 850cc because it was a better long term option than the 550's.

Is 850 more than you need?
YES but i would rather have more then not enough plus 850's give you room to grow a little 550's dont and with 550's its only a matter of time till they fail trying to support 500whp over time


Food for thought with any build: build a car for more than what you need or what your goal is it will last longer over time

you want 500whp then build the car to support 600whp

the problem i have seen with most PT builds is the people here do just enough to get by and never think of the long term that why either the builds die or the car does



so in closing can you get 500whp out of 550cc injectors? YES (i never said you couldnt)

is 550cc ideal for that power level? NO


on gas

ideal hp numbers not saying you cant get more

550cc - 394@whp 463@crank

700cc - 501@whp 589@crank

850cc - 604@whp 715@crank



---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------




best statement so far

This is perfect!!!! Thank you x10000000. Couldn't of asked for a better explanation and post. I'll stick with the 850cc injectors.

Originally Posted by KLZE Porsche

I would listen to P1P -as he seems to know more about the math involved in the calculations. As I have said -I only know from what I have read/heard and not from experience.

I do know that when I was looking into injectors a long time back -and I didn't want to go too large -but yet have enough expansion to push the limit -I began looking at Injector Dynamic injectors because there is supposed to be something about them that allows you to push for more without having them too large to start with.

Perhaps someone will chime in with more info on them.

I was also looking into aftermarket injectors for the fd and came across the ID injectors. They are $240 for the pair. Yikes! Another reason why I went with secondary injectors.

Waiting for the more info as well.

If anybody can give me info on how to set up a meth kit that would be greatly appreciated as well. I messaged a member that has ran the snow performance stage 2 meth kit but couldn't help much as his brother and friend installed it for him.

So currently the fuel duties will be

850cc injectors
Upgrading to an aeromotive 340lph
Aeromotive fpr
Aeromotive fuel filter
-6an lines will go bigger or different sizes if need be. Another area I have to research more.
Snow performance stage 2 meth kit

[P1P]

Originally Posted by Stanced4lyfe

Waiting for the more info as well.

If anybody can give me info on how to set up a meth kit that would be greatly appreciated as well.

sorry can't help you there i never smoked meth or built a lab ,

i'm drug free and so is my car lol

Just say no

[Stanced4lyfe]

Originally Posted by P1P

sorry can't help you there i never smoked meth or built a lab ,

i'm drug free and so is my car lol

Just say no

Lol if you put it that way might as well get our breaking bad on and finish this car faster.

[P1P]

here's some advice which I have told you this once before so I will say it again since that was last year and this is a new year

you need to focus on your car in sections, you are all over the place with this build gathering parts

in my opinion you are moving too fast, dont be in so much of a rush to get to the end product

I know it is your money and it is your car and i have no right to tell you unless you ask my opinion


I think you should slow down a little and focus on what you need now and not what you need later

1st thing I would do going by the parts you have already is MS the stock motor learn it and tune it while you are N/A, get it running properly then upgrade from there at the point you are right now you have alot to do before installing a built motor

after you get the car running right with your new ems then turbo your car at least you know that if you have any problem at this point you know it had to do with the turbo install and not the ems (easiers that way to track down problems)

after you get it running right turbo and you enjoyed it for a minute and wore out a few set of tires then you can upgrade from there

oh by the way glad you got rid of that gm turbo I told you that you wouldnt like that turbo the new turbo you picked is better


next time you decide to buy a turbo call the manufacture and give them the specs of your build (size of your motor, compression, where you want to make boost - bottom end mid range or top end) for proper sizing your turbo


on the street you would rather have a mid range to top end turbo at the track if running slick your choice would be different

[proboner]

Originally Posted by P1P

ideal fuel pressure for a turbo car range from 42 to 47psi

At idle yes. But unless you get a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, you're going to need to increase the FP to compensate for the boost... 1 psi FP increase for each 1 psi of boost

[P1P]

Originally Posted by proboner

At idle yes. But unless you get a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, you're going to need to increase the FP to compensate for the boost... 1 psi FP increase for each 1 psi of boost

I was assuming he already had a 1:1 rising rate fuel pressure regulator but if not here's a good one


Aeromotive pt#13109

[Stanced4lyfe]

Originally Posted by P1P

here's some advice which I have told you this once before so I will say it again since that was last year and this is a new year

you need to focus on your car in sections, you are all over the place with this build gathering parts

in my opinion you are moving too fast, dont be in so much of a rush to get to the end product

I know it is your money and it is your car and i have no right to tell you unless you ask my opinion


I think you should slow down a little and focus on what you need now and not what you need later

1st thing I would do going by the parts you have already is MS the stock motor learn it and tune it while you are N/A, get it running properly then upgrade from there at the point you are right now you have alot to do before installing a built motor

after you get the car running right with your new ems then turbo your car at least you know that if you have any problem at this point you know it had to do with the turbo install and not the ems (easiers that way to track down problems)

after you get it running right turbo and you enjoyed it for a minute and wore out a few set of tires then you can upgrade from there

oh by the way glad you got rid of that gm turbo I told you that you wouldnt like that turbo the new turbo you picked is better


next time you decide to buy a turbo call the manufacture and give them the specs of your build (size of your motor, compression, where you want to make boost - bottom end mid range or top end) for proper sizing your turbo


on the street you would rather have a mid range to top end turbo at the track if running slick your choice would be different

I am quite all over the place with this build. I do apologize for that. I've had the car a little over two years now and in no way its a rush. The motor is on a stand. I haven't touched it since the summer.

In order for me to get the car going again instead of having just a running built motor, I need to finish the suspension parts. I got basically a whole new rear suspension but never got around to installing it to put it back on all fours.

I need to get another set of stock struts until I can afford the air ride setup as well.

I still also have two motors. One is currently getting rebuilt of course and the other is still in the car with a blown timing belt.

I've never tuned a car whatsoever so I have no clue what to do there. I do have a tuner for my car when I get finished. He's just waiting on me but if I need to actually tune it myself before I get the car to him then I will.

Like you said I need to find all the bugs N/A so that when I do put the turbo kit on I'll have less problems. This is my first full on turbo build so I'm expecting problems or rookie mistakes.

Ill continue focusing on the motor but ultimately I need her back on all fours. From now on this is the main focus.

Agreed on the turbo choice. I believe this one will serve good duties on the track and on the street for me.

Originally Posted by P1P

I was assuming he already had a 1:1 rising rate fuel pressure regulator but if not here's a good one


Aeromotive pt#13109

I'm actually looking at the 13129. It's already in my cart. Good for up to 1000hp, 1:1 rising rate fpr, 30-70 psi fuel pressure adjustable.

[Stanced4lyfe]

Well it's that time of the year again! My favorite time because I can buy some goodies for the probe.

But now I'm stuck on a few things.

1. I just found out that we have e85 27mins away from me and they are building another e85 pump closer. So e85 or meth kit now hmmm.

2. I've been looking high and low, calling companies and overly Google searching for forged pistons and rods set up.

Raceeng is currently out of stock and there custom setup is $2100 and $975 for pistons. Ross pistons are around the same price with the rings, coatings, pins etc. Diamond pistons are $233 each! Wiseco I've heard to be around $150 a piston.

Thmotorsports has a set of k1 rods for $492 as well as kainjection on Facebook has his own custom set for $380.

3. Has anybody on this forum maxed out milly s rods? What about the milly s and vitara setup? Has it been maxed or assumed that they can only handle so much?

4. Other than the fx designs lips, the rare corksport lip, cavy zx2 lip and the mach 1 lip what other options have people tried? I really want the Rx7 fd front lip and diffuser but the probe is 69.8 inches wide and the 99 fd is 69.2 inches wide.

Can they be widen to fit? Or should I look at lips around 70" or 69.8" found a few cars with the same width.

5. Parts for this car is expensive!!!!!! And very hard to find.

My current and final goal with this car is 600whp that will see street, car shows and track time. No more changing of the goals.

Dedicated wheels for show and dedicated wheels for track. Same with the tires. I also have to factor in my over fenders for this setup.

I'm still deciding on finishing the motor first and get it running or finish the suspension setup and get it back on the ground.

Any advice on what direction to head towards next is great. This forum has been nothing but helpful.

Thanks guys

Also if anybody has parts laying around I could use, it's income tax time!!! Help me get to my goals.

[P1P]

Originally Posted by Stanced4lyfe

Any advice on what direction to head towards next is great.

I've beat the answer to this question so many times it sounds like a cherokee drum (In my Hobbs/Rocks voice)

[P1P]

Originally Posted by Stanced4lyfe

1. I just found out that we have e85 27mins away from me and they are building another e85 pump closer. So e85 or meth kit now hmmm.

set your car up to run both E85 and Pump gas

also you can't run e85 on regular fuel lines for long periods of time e85 will eat them up over time

[P1P]

Originally Posted by Stanced4lyfe

My current and final goal with this car is 600whp that will see street

unless you roll racing 60 to 145mph you won't be happy with 600whp on the street there is a big difference between making power and making usable power

food for thought

the difference between a 800hp supra and a 1000hp supra a dyno sheet and money

there have been cases where a 800hp Supra has outran a 1000hp Supra


my opinion you want too much power to enjoy in a front wheel drive car

[Stanced4lyfe]

Originally Posted by P1P

I've beat the answer to this question so many times it sounds like a cherokee drum (In my Hobbs/Rocks voice)

Yes you have. Many times you have said build the motor N/A, learn to tune it on MS and fix all the bugs for less of a headache when I throw the turbo kit on.

I still have to find out what piston and rod setup to run before that and then I still need my suspension setup so I can get the car back on the ground.

I'll do what you said first.

Originally Posted by P1P

set your car up to run both E85 and Pump gas

also you can't run e85 on regular fuel lines for long periods of time e85 will eat them up over time

I actually didn't know you could do that. Thread or link to this for our cars?

Originally Posted by P1P

unless you roll racing 60 to 145mph you won't be happy with 600whp on the street there is a big difference between making power and making usable power

food for thought

the difference between a 800hp supra and a 1000hp supra a dyno sheet and money

there have been cases where a 800hp Supra has outran a 1000hp Supra


my opinion you want too much power to enjoy in a front wheel drive car

I'm not really looking to race everybody on the street. I'll do a few pulls because of course I still have a lead foot lol but the 600whp goal is really for the track. I'll get a boost controller.

That's why I'm getting two sets of wheels/tires. I can always lower the boost for street purposes and turn it up for the track days. Still need a good tire for the street and track.

My show wheels are currently getting done. Those will be a surprise. Track wheels I'm still undecided.

I'm getting a roll cage done, back seat can go bye bye, looking for full black interior, still going air ride, Braum seats, seat belt harness, harness bar. The front will be getting king6 fab suspension parts, the rear is done just needs put back together and painted.

[P1P]

you can run pump gas and you can run e85 it just depends on how you want to set it up

1 way you could do it is to use the stock fuel tank for pump gas and a fuel cell for e85 keep in mind you will need a separate fuel pump for each tank so you can switch between the 2. also you would need a separate tune for each type of fuel

run pump gas daily flip a switch run e85 on race night

[Stanced4lyfe]

Originally Posted by P1P

you can run pump gas and you can run e85 it just depends on how you want to set it up

1 way you could do it is to use the stock fuel tank for pump gas and a fuel cell for e85 keep in mind you will need a separate fuel pump for each tank so you can switch between the 2. also you would need a separate tune for each type of fuel

run pump gas daily flip a switch run e85 on race night

Hmmm I never really thought about that. So would I keep the stock lines for the stock fuel tank and separate lines for the fuel cell and e85?

How would all that even work? Would I need two of everything to run that? Would MS support that?

[P1P]

Originally Posted by Stanced4lyfe

Hmmm I never really thought about that. So would I keep the stock lines for the stock fuel tank and separate lines for the fuel cell and e85?

How would all that even work? Would I need two of everything to run that? Would MS support that?

can't really tell you about MS I have never use or studied the product


you gonna have to upgrade your fuel lines regardless to run E85

E85 maybe not as corrosive a pump gas but E85 contains a lot of water which in turn can cause rust in your fuel system over a period of time

that is why companies make specific fuel lines and fuel pumps for running e85

also if you gonna run e85 what are you gonna use to determine the content mixture for your specific tune (just cause it say E85 at the pump doesn't means its E85 going into your car a the time you are pumping gas it could be E70) E85 at the gas station can vary sometimes and a lot of people don't know this

[Brizzy]

OP is a dreamer. Build won't happen imo.

[xrp861]

Still need about 4-5k to build the trans.....that's really where one would start if being serious about a 600whp probe thread. Guys gonna launch at the track and send g box all over it hahahaha.

[KLZE Porsche]

^^^ You should be listening to what was said here. Haven't heard a lot about how you intend to put that power to the ground. I saw M-factory -but I don't think that would do it. Are you talking about a $5000 gear set? You must be made of money because I could NEVER afford your dream list.

And also putting a gynormous turbo on it does not mean that you will hit 600hp. You don't think that Dan Sac tried? And I am not sure that he was ever able to bust the 500 mark. This seems to be the limit for these engines and yet you plan to hit 100 hp more?

If this logic holds true then this means that whatever the fastest quarter mile time right now is for top fuel (3.64 secs?) -could be quicker by a second or maybe even two? After all the gains are linear aren't they? And if that holds true then we should some day be able to time travel in our KL powered cars.

[Stanced4lyfe]

Originally Posted by P1P

can't really tell you about MS I have never use or studied the product


you gonna have to upgrade your fuel lines regardless to run E85

E85 maybe not as corrosive a pump gas but E85 contains a lot of water which in turn can cause rust in your fuel system over a period of time

that is why companies make specific fuel lines and fuel pumps for running e85

also if you gonna run e85 what are you gonna use to determine the content mixture for your specific tune (just cause it say E85 at the pump doesn't means its E85 going into your car a the time you are pumping gas it could be E70) E85 at the gas station can vary sometimes and a lot of people don't know this

I just read an article about e85 vs. Meth kit. It explained the pros and cons about each. I'm still undecided even though e85 is the clear winner for power.

A member on here made 500whp on the snow performance stage 2 kit. I don't know that's a huge decision I really have to think about.

Originally Posted by Brizzy

OP is a dreamer. Build won't happen imo.

I've always wanted a car a unique car I can go all out on. It's always been one of my goals in life. I've had others I have tried with and they were failures because of lack of money or I totaled the car.

Now I have a great job that pays really well and my dreams or me being a dreamer can become reality. I can take my time with this build because I have two other perfectly fine running cars. My 03 civic ex coupe 5 speed and my 13 focus se auto tragic in which I'll be trading that in soon for another 5 speed vehicle with some umph to it.

I know it's a tall feat to my goals but it's not out of reach.

Thanks you for your opinion sir.

Originally Posted by xrp861

Still need about 4-5k to build the trans.....that's really where one would start if being serious about a 600whp probe thread. Guys gonna launch at the track and send g box all over it hahahaha.

Mfactory protege gearsets $1500
Mfactory rebuild kit $299 already own
Mfactory lsd $749
Insane or dss axles TBD. Have to send in my axles for a quote
Clutch masters twin disk w/ flywheel $1440

Total for my transmission build (I'll be rebuilding it)

$4588. Cheaper than par gears alone. I'll take it! I threw in $600 for the axles might by $800 so you are right about that.

Ima just pull the trigger on the k1 rods thmotorsports has and call every reputable piston company asking for quotes then I'll make my decision on the pistons.

[KLZE Porsche]

Originally Posted by Stanced4lyfe

Mfactory protege gearsets $1500
Mfactory rebuild kit $299 already own
Mfactory lsd $749
Insane or dss axles TBD. Have to send in my axles for a quote
Clutch masters twin disk w/ flywheel $1440

Total for my transmission build (I'll be rebuilding it)

$4588. Cheaper than par gears alone. I'll take it! I threw in $600 for the axles might by $800 so you are right about that.

I still think that this isn't enough. Unless the Mfactory Protege gears solve the problem of the parts being too small or far too week for 600 hp -then I just don't see how you can do it.

Building a car is a lot more than just putting together a wish list of all the hype parts that you read about on the internet. I have seen so many people do this. Typically they make this big long list at the top of their threads and it is usually a VERY huge dream list.

Most of the time -these people that make these huge lists -have never put realistic prices on items and made a total and then figured out how much spare change they make and how many years it would take to fund this "dream" list. Unless you have a 100k job where you have lots of money to blow -I really do not see it happening. Going fast costs stupid amounts of money.

And then you must always consider -you will only get 10% or less back in return when you part it all out. Not a good investment -unless again -you are rich -or if you have sponsors.

[Stanced4lyfe]

Originally Posted by KLZE Porsche

I still think that this isn't enough. Unless the Mfactory Protege gears solve the problem of the parts being too small or far too week for 600 hp -then I just don't see how you can do it.

Building a car is a lot more than just putting together a wish list of all the hype parts that you read about on the internet. I have seen so many people do this. Typically they make this big long list at the top of their threads and it is usually a VERY huge dream list.

Most of the time -these people that make these huge lists -have never put realistic prices on items and made a total and then figured out how much spare change they make and how many years it would take to fund this "dream" list. Unless you have a 100k job where you have lots of money to blow -I really do not see it happening. Going fast costs stupid amounts of money.

And then you must always consider -you will only get 10% or less back in return when you part it all out. Not a good investment -unless again -you are rich -or if you have sponsors.

There is a full thread on the mfactory gearset for the protege on here and has been confirmed that they fit in our cars no problems. They make a gearset thats rated for 500whp and that's the one Ima go with.

Trust me I have a huge dream list. I had it on here then I took it down and put it in my samsung notes with the prices of everything. I go back to that list and see what I'm buying next for this build. Yes expensive, that's why this build will take a very long time but in that very long time I come to this forum for advice, opinions and of course the great help each and every one of you give me.

Even if I am all over the place.

I knew before and I know now that this build will not be cheap whatsoever. I'm ready to spend the $$$$$$ on a $500 car that gets little to no recognition. This is my investment and I'm going through with it. Failure or not I'm determined to make it happen.

I'm not worried about what I'm getting back via part out or selling the car. This car will have sentimental value because it will be the first car I've actually completed. This car will be here to stay and I will always save a spot in my garage for her.