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Old January 6th, 2018, 01:03 PM   #226
P1P
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not to get into a back and forth debate

1) Can you make 500 whp with 550cc injector?

YES

2) Is it a good long term ideal?

NO

Here's why not: In order to make 500whp with 550cc injectors you have to run you fuel pressure above 60 percent or your duty cycle between 95 to a 100%.

The ideal duty cycle for injectors is to keep them below 85% (preferably 80%).

running injectors at a high duty all the time will eventually fail.


ideal fuel pressure for a turbo car range from 42 to 47psi

so lets use that math

550cc injectors
fuel pressure 47
duty cycle 90%

should support 490 @crank 417 wheel so in a ideal situation you are short 83whp to your 500whp goal


so what do you really need to be safe

ideal duty cycle 85%
fuel pressure 47 (actually the fuel pressure could be lowered a little)
700cc injectors is what you actually need to safely run 500whp


i suggested the 850cc because it was a better long term option than the 550's.

Is 850 more than you need?
YES but i would rather have more then not enough plus 850's give you room to grow a little 550's dont and with 550's its only a matter of time till they fail trying to support 500whp over time


Food for thought with any build: build a car for more than what you need or what your goal is it will last longer over time

you want 500whp then build the car to support 600whp

the problem i have seen with most PT builds is the people here do just enough to get by and never think of the long term that why either the builds die or the car does



so in closing can you get 500whp out of 550cc injectors? YES (i never said you couldnt)

is 550cc ideal for that power level? NO


on gas

ideal hp numbers not saying you cant get more

550cc - 394@whp 463@crank

700cc - 501@whp 589@crank

850cc - 604@whp 715@crank



---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanced4lyfe View Post
I figure I would run the 850cc injectors to have more room for play.

best statement so far

Last edited by P1P; January 6th, 2018 at 01:06 PM.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 01:15 PM   #227
Stanced4lyfe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLZE Porsche View Post
850cc is serious overkill if you are only trying for 500 whp. It is always best to size your injectors correctly. The only people that I have ever sold 850cc injectors to were people running E85 and a few people with really big dreams that never came to fruition.

I believe people are running OK with E85 because I am guessing that it has a thicker consistency than typical high octane gas. I am not sure -but I know they have had success. But typically -you will not find 500 whp +/- 50 running 850cc injectors on a KL because -I believe it would make it harder to tune. I believe the 550 injectors give you plenty of room to play.

I would not listen to Honda guys when it comes to selecting your injectors. It is not a good side by side comparison. You should get some advise from those that have hit near 500 hp here on PT. Ask them what duty cycle they were running when hitting near 500 hp.

I could buy a ginormous centrifugal supercharger to put on my race car that is capable of producing 1000 whp. But in doing so -I may not even hit 500 whp. You should size things appropriately and the best source of sizing is those that have gone there/done that. Check with Dan Sac, Mac1 and a few others to find out what boost they were running to hit near 500 whp and what injectors/ duty cycle they were running.

That is your best source for accurate information -not some Honda guys that don't know Probes. That is just my .02. Of course -I could be wrong in my sizing assumptions since I have not hit near 500 whp yet myself. I get my info from reading posts here on PT and not a Honda website.

P.S. I believe the 550cc = 500whp & 850cc = 800whp is only a KL generic rule of thumb. I do not know if this same generic rule of thumb applies to other motors.
So what you are telling me is that I can make close to 600whp with 550cc injectors? That's why I bought the 850cc because I was aiming for as close to 600whp.

No E85 around me whatsoever! Highest is 93 octane and I plan on running the snow performance stage 2 meth kit to reach my 500whp + goals and hopefully make close to 600whp.

I wasn't comparing honda injector sizing from the Honda threads I was reviewing the turbo and different turbo sizing of the precision 6176e. Precision also posted on the Honda forums about the turbo.

I did read numerous of threads about what different people ran on there setups to get 500+ and it was different for just about every other car other than some general rule of the thumb threads.

Only reason why I was on the Honda forums was for the precision turbo not the injectors.

Any information from the OGs on here is always great. I have messaged and read threads from 500+ builds on here. I'm ultimately confused about the injectors. The turbo I know will work for sure this time.

Mfactory also emailed me back about the gears. I can still get the 500whp gears but can it handle more than that if I hit close to 600whp?

We will find out once I get the car done.

The replys to my thread is great. This makes me happy that I can get help from the OGs on here.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 01:30 PM   #228
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I would listen to P1P -as he seems to know more about the math involved in the calculations. As I have said -I only know from what I have read/heard and not from experience.

I do know that when I was looking into injectors a long time back -and I didn't want to go too large -but yet have enough expansion to push the limit -I began looking at Injector Dynamic injectors because there is supposed to be something about them that allows you to push for more without having them too large to start with.

Perhaps someone will chime in with more info on them.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 01:42 PM   #229
P1P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLZE Porsche View Post
-I began looking at Injector Dynamic injectors because there is supposed to be something about them that allows you to push for more without having them too large to start with.
those are some good injectors

alot of Supra's and honda's are running them
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Old January 6th, 2018, 04:21 PM   #230
Stanced4lyfe
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Posts: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by P1P View Post
not to get into a back and forth debate

1) Can you make 500 whp with 550cc injector?

YES

2) Is it a good long term ideal?

NO

Here's why not: In order to make 500whp with 550cc injectors you have to run you fuel pressure above 60 percent or your duty cycle between 95 to a 100%.

The ideal duty cycle for injectors is to keep them below 85% (preferably 80%).

running injectors at a high duty all the time will eventually fail.


ideal fuel pressure for a turbo car range from 42 to 47psi

so lets use that math

550cc injectors
fuel pressure 47
duty cycle 90%

should support 490 @crank 417 wheel so in a ideal situation you are short 83whp to your 500whp goal


so what do you really need to be safe

ideal duty cycle 85%
fuel pressure 47 (actually the fuel pressure could be lowered a little)
700cc injectors is what you actually need to safely run 500whp


i suggested the 850cc because it was a better long term option than the 550's.

Is 850 more than you need?
YES but i would rather have more then not enough plus 850's give you room to grow a little 550's dont and with 550's its only a matter of time till they fail trying to support 500whp over time


Food for thought with any build: build a car for more than what you need or what your goal is it will last longer over time

you want 500whp then build the car to support 600whp

the problem i have seen with most PT builds is the people here do just enough to get by and never think of the long term that why either the builds die or the car does



so in closing can you get 500whp out of 550cc injectors? YES (i never said you couldnt)

is 550cc ideal for that power level? NO


on gas

ideal hp numbers not saying you cant get more

550cc - 394@whp 463@crank

700cc - 501@whp 589@crank

850cc - 604@whp 715@crank



---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------




best statement so far
This is perfect!!!! Thank you x10000000. Couldn't of asked for a better explanation and post. I'll stick with the 850cc injectors.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KLZE Porsche View Post
I would listen to P1P -as he seems to know more about the math involved in the calculations. As I have said -I only know from what I have read/heard and not from experience.

I do know that when I was looking into injectors a long time back -and I didn't want to go too large -but yet have enough expansion to push the limit -I began looking at Injector Dynamic injectors because there is supposed to be something about them that allows you to push for more without having them too large to start with.

Perhaps someone will chime in with more info on them.
I was also looking into aftermarket injectors for the fd and came across the ID injectors. They are $240 for the pair. Yikes! Another reason why I went with secondary injectors.

Waiting for the more info as well.

If anybody can give me info on how to set up a meth kit that would be greatly appreciated as well. I messaged a member that has ran the snow performance stage 2 meth kit but couldn't help much as his brother and friend installed it for him.

So currently the fuel duties will be

850cc injectors
Upgrading to an aeromotive 340lph
Aeromotive fpr
Aeromotive fuel filter
-6an lines will go bigger or different sizes if need be. Another area I have to research more.
Snow performance stage 2 meth kit
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Old January 6th, 2018, 04:42 PM   #231
P1P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanced4lyfe View Post

Waiting for the more info as well.

If anybody can give me info on how to set up a meth kit that would be greatly appreciated as well.

sorry can't help you there i never smoked meth or built a lab ,

i'm drug free and so is my car lol

Just say no

Last edited by P1P; January 6th, 2018 at 04:43 PM.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 05:10 PM   #232
Stanced4lyfe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P1P View Post
sorry can't help you there i never smoked meth or built a lab ,

i'm drug free and so is my car lol

Just say no
Lol if you put it that way might as well get our breaking bad on and finish this car faster.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 05:15 PM   #233
P1P
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here's some advice which I have told you this once before so I will say it again since that was last year and this is a new year

you need to focus on your car in sections, you are all over the place with this build gathering parts

in my opinion you are moving too fast, dont be in so much of a rush to get to the end product

I know it is your money and it is your car and i have no right to tell you unless you ask my opinion


I think you should slow down a little and focus on what you need now and not what you need later

1st thing I would do going by the parts you have already is MS the stock motor learn it and tune it while you are N/A, get it running properly then upgrade from there at the point you are right now you have alot to do before installing a built motor

after you get the car running right with your new ems then turbo your car at least you know that if you have any problem at this point you know it had to do with the turbo install and not the ems (easiers that way to track down problems)

after you get it running right turbo and you enjoyed it for a minute and wore out a few set of tires then you can upgrade from there

oh by the way glad you got rid of that gm turbo I told you that you wouldnt like that turbo the new turbo you picked is better


next time you decide to buy a turbo call the manufacture and give them the specs of your build (size of your motor, compression, where you want to make boost - bottom end mid range or top end) for proper sizing your turbo


on the street you would rather have a mid range to top end turbo at the track if running slick your choice would be different
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Old January 6th, 2018, 09:32 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P1P View Post
ideal fuel pressure for a turbo car range from 42 to 47psi
At idle yes. But unless you get a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, you're going to need to increase the FP to compensate for the boost... 1 psi FP increase for each 1 psi of boost
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Old January 7th, 2018, 07:25 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proboner View Post
At idle yes. But unless you get a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, you're going to need to increase the FP to compensate for the boost... 1 psi FP increase for each 1 psi of boost
I was assuming he already had a 1:1 rising rate fuel pressure regulator but if not here's a good one


Aeromotive pt#13109

Last edited by P1P; January 7th, 2018 at 07:28 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 05:26 PM   #236
Stanced4lyfe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P1P View Post
here's some advice which I have told you this once before so I will say it again since that was last year and this is a new year

you need to focus on your car in sections, you are all over the place with this build gathering parts

in my opinion you are moving too fast, dont be in so much of a rush to get to the end product

I know it is your money and it is your car and i have no right to tell you unless you ask my opinion


I think you should slow down a little and focus on what you need now and not what you need later

1st thing I would do going by the parts you have already is MS the stock motor learn it and tune it while you are N/A, get it running properly then upgrade from there at the point you are right now you have alot to do before installing a built motor

after you get the car running right with your new ems then turbo your car at least you know that if you have any problem at this point you know it had to do with the turbo install and not the ems (easiers that way to track down problems)

after you get it running right turbo and you enjoyed it for a minute and wore out a few set of tires then you can upgrade from there

oh by the way glad you got rid of that gm turbo I told you that you wouldnt like that turbo the new turbo you picked is better


next time you decide to buy a turbo call the manufacture and give them the specs of your build (size of your motor, compression, where you want to make boost - bottom end mid range or top end) for proper sizing your turbo


on the street you would rather have a mid range to top end turbo at the track if running slick your choice would be different
I am quite all over the place with this build. I do apologize for that. I've had the car a little over two years now and in no way its a rush. The motor is on a stand. I haven't touched it since the summer.

In order for me to get the car going again instead of having just a running built motor, I need to finish the suspension parts. I got basically a whole new rear suspension but never got around to installing it to put it back on all fours.

I need to get another set of stock struts until I can afford the air ride setup as well.

I still also have two motors. One is currently getting rebuilt of course and the other is still in the car with a blown timing belt.

I've never tuned a car whatsoever so I have no clue what to do there. I do have a tuner for my car when I get finished. He's just waiting on me but if I need to actually tune it myself before I get the car to him then I will.

Like you said I need to find all the bugs N/A so that when I do put the turbo kit on I'll have less problems. This is my first full on turbo build so I'm expecting problems or rookie mistakes.

Ill continue focusing on the motor but ultimately I need her back on all fours. From now on this is the main focus.

Agreed on the turbo choice. I believe this one will serve good duties on the track and on the street for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P1P View Post
I was assuming he already had a 1:1 rising rate fuel pressure regulator but if not here's a good one


Aeromotive pt#13109
I'm actually looking at the 13129. It's already in my cart. Good for up to 1000hp, 1:1 rising rate fpr, 30-70 psi fuel pressure adjustable.
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