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2nd Gen (93-97) V6 2.5L Discussion of Maint Issues for V6

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Old October 17th, 2015, 10:25 AM   #1
majo8
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Ughh!!!! No start, and racing in six days!

Hi. I've got a no-start situation. The car took about 10 seconds to fire two weeks ago after sitting for a month, 30 seconds last night, and this morning it cranks but won't run. It's getting fuel, not sure about spark. Is this progressively longer time to fire up an indication of a certain failure? It never took more than 5 seconds to start before.

I'm about to replace the crank sensor. What's the easiest way to check for spark without damaging the disty? Oh.... the disty is only 3-4 years old according to the guy I bought it from three years ago. Thanks.
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Old October 17th, 2015, 12:20 PM   #2
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take spark plug wire off of spark plug, put spare spark plug on said wire...set on intake manifold. Crank and watch for spark.

Take paperclip, stick in ten+ground in diag box. Turn key on but no start. Count flash check codes.

Probably crank sensor, or coolant temp sensor.
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Old October 17th, 2015, 12:37 PM   #3
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Just replaced crank sensor, still no start. Would the coolant temp sensor cause a no start?

Also, forgot to mention earlier -- a couple times while trying to start the car, the radiator fan came on after I stopped cranking? WTF? The TPS is adjusted correctly.

I'll check for spark and report back. Thanks.
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Old October 17th, 2015, 12:53 PM   #4
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No spark. Possible distributor failure?
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Old October 17th, 2015, 02:33 PM   #5
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Yes...
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Old October 17th, 2015, 07:45 PM   #6
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Disty.

Do an HEI mod.
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Old October 18th, 2015, 08:57 AM   #7
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I'm getting a code 2 -- crankshaft position sensor. I know there's two CPS's, the one in the disty and the one I replaced that reads on the front of the engine. Does code 2 mean one or the other, or does it mean it could be either?

If it means it could be either, that could be my disty, right? Seeing as I replaced the front of the engine CPS, and both the old one and new one are unlikely to be bad?
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Old October 18th, 2015, 09:55 AM   #8
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The disty is getting power -- checked the power at the connectors.
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Old October 18th, 2015, 11:57 AM   #9
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what are you running?

Mid-Ohio doesn't have anything on their schedule past August 15 and neither LeMons nor Chumpcar show anything at Mid-Ohio for this weekend.

so i have no idea what the sanctioning body is or actual date / time of the comp.
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Old October 18th, 2015, 11:59 AM   #10
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AER -- American Endurance Racing -- Oct 24-25. If I can get this miserable piece of sh!t running, that is.
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 01:32 PM   #11
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Well...... it wasn't the disty, replaced with a new unit, still getting the CPS code 2 and I checked the wiring all the way to the ECU -- and it's good.

Anyone got a KL89 ECU for sale?
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 04:55 PM   #12
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Make sure the trigger wheel on crank is intact and clean
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 05:12 PM   #13
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Well...... it wasn't the disty, replaced with a new unit, still getting the CPS code 2 and I checked the wiring all the way to the ECU -- and it's good.

Anyone got a KL89 ECU for sale?
Talk to branscoset.
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Old October 24th, 2015, 06:07 PM   #14
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Btw 95 distys don't have the second sensor. If I unplug the sensor on the side of the engine (or if it were to fail) the car won't run.

With the fan coming on and the progressive deterioration I'd say either the ecu or some weird wiring gremlin. But I'm relatively new to the 2nd gen scene and haven't (yet) had to diagnose a no-start...
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Old October 24th, 2015, 08:20 PM   #15
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Thanks for the replies everyone.

I think browncoat is right -- I'm currently looking for an ECU, and if that doesn't work, it's probably some wiring problem. I even unplugged the fan relays just for kicks to see if that was an issue!

I should probably do as Probesport recommended and check the crank wheel.

Unfortunately, I did miss the race. Such is racing......
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Old October 26th, 2015, 06:23 AM   #16
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Timing belt still there?
Also when u checked the ckp sensor connector did you bother to twist the pins just slightly for better connection. Also are u running timing belt covers, maybe the pulleys chewed up the wire.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 04:27 PM   #17
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Timing belt still there?
Also when u checked the ckp sensor connector did you bother to twist the pins just slightly for better connection. Also are u running timing belt covers, maybe the pulleys chewed up the wire.
Thanks for the reply mac.

Yes, I did twist the pins, and the wires are for the CPS are fine in front of the engine -- I tested them all the way to the ECU and they are getting a signal. Timing belt is good too.

I'll be getting a new ECU soon. Not in as much of a hurry now!
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Old October 26th, 2015, 09:30 PM   #18
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I don't know how I didn't see this thread before. Is it possible the front timing pulley sheared off the pin that makes it spin the front cams. Engine will turn over, timing will look fine, it will crank and crank with no start no matter what parts you change and it's throwing a crank sensor code. You should be able to tell by taking off the disty cap and cranking the engine, if it doesn't spin, there you go.

If that is the case let me know, I have both front cams sitting here doing nothing that I'm trying not to mix up with 4 other cams sitting here doing nothing. All DE cams. You probably will need a pulley too, which I can lend you til you find another for me. The front cams worked fine... I sheared the pin off one of my rear cams. I have a crank pulley too. Just message me if you need a part, my DE is in pieces.
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Old November 11th, 2015, 03:30 PM   #19
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Thanks for the offer Blue.

Follow-up:

I replaced the ECU, and after five tries, the engine fired up. The CPS code was gone, but replaced by codes for the fuel pressure solenoid, and the temp sensor! I turned the engine off and started it a few more times, and it fired up every time. Just for kicks, I put the old ECU back in with the engine warm, and it still started and ran fine! WTF!!!!

So........ I left the old ECU in. I went out to the garage the next day, and it would not fire up. Hmmm. The CPS code was back, but the FPRS and temp sensor codes were gone. I put the new ECU in and it fired up, checked codes and CPS gone, other two codes came back.

I replaced the temp sensor ( it was cracked ) and that took care of the fan problem, replaced the FPRS with one I had lying around, and that code was cleared. No codes now.

The car seems to still take a little longer to fire than before. I was gonna put the old ECU back in and try to start the car when the engine was cold, but didn't want to tempt fate! So it appears that the old ECU couldn't start a cold engine that was sitting overnight, but would start and run the engine when it was warm. Weird. I should probably test the cold start thing again to prove this theory. Someday.........

Bummer is that the problem could still be there. I was told by a fellow LeMons racer that ECU's don't like to be cycled off and on a lot, which mine is, as I have a kill switch that kills all power. In his set-up, he keeps power going to the ECU even when the kill switch is off. Has anyone else heard that the ECU's don't like being turned off and on?
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Old November 14th, 2015, 08:57 PM   #20
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I've been watching with some interest, and glad to see that the issue is somewhat resolved. The temp sensor you replaced, this was the water temp sensor? Is that correct?

I've got a Longacre kill switch on my car as well, but it's a 4 pole switch and not the standard 2 pole. There is power that goes through the key/ignition switch and then to the ECU........this is where I put kill switch in series. I'm running a 96 ECU and wiring harness and have not had issues with losing an ECU. And that's with 2 different engines, 3 races, and 1 all day practice session.

I'm not saying I have the best solution, but it's worked for me. I can't say what the wire number is off the top of my head, and besides your results may vary depending the year model. But, I've been really cautious if I was welding on the car. I've gone so far as to remove the ECU from the car until the welding is finished.

PM me if you have any questions.........or suggestions.

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Old November 14th, 2015, 10:41 PM   #21
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There's a thread from 2005 where someone had to take their ecu inside and warm it up and then their probe would start, sounded like his problem was similar but worse. Figure some sort of cold solder joint inside the ecu.
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Old November 15th, 2015, 06:03 AM   #22
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I think the cold solder joint issue you describe is a great idea. Hadn't thought of that one.
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Old November 15th, 2015, 10:33 AM   #23
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I've been watching with some interest, and glad to see that the issue is somewhat resolved. The temp sensor you replaced, this was the water temp sensor? Is that correct?
Yes, the water temp sensor.

I have a four pole switch too, which I hooked up to the battery on one pole, and a wire that goes to the distributor on the other. Works good.

I may look into powering the ECU straight from the battery in the future.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 01:59 PM   #24
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Well, it took over two years but I finally figured out a solution to the problem!

The car had been starting and running with no problems since November '15, and last week as I was prepping the car for a Lemons race this weekend ( Barber Motorsports Park, Alabama ), the car took a long time to fire. Hmmmm. The next day it took longer, the next day longer, etc. Just cranking and cranking and a reluctance to fire. Yesterday, it wouldn't fire at all, just like it did back in Oct '15. F#ck!ng great -- the race is five days away and I'm back to dealing with this BS. Again.

I was getting the CPS code again when it was hard to start. After it finally would start I'd let it run a while, turn it off, disconnect the battery and read the codes again and the CPS code would be gone. Also, it would fire right up after the car was warm ( maybe slightly longer than usual ), and would so for 3-4 hours after, but in the morning when I'd try to start it it'd take forever again. Kept the battery on a trickle charger too.

I called up a buddy and fellow Lemons racer yesterday and he suggested a few things to check. He had experienced a hard start issue in his Mitsu/Chrysler race car a few years ago, and was having a hell of a time diagnosing it, much like I had and was now having again. He eventually relocated the battery, which had been in the trunk, back under the hood and it fixed his hard start issues. I figured I'd give that a try, so I put the battery back in it's OEM spot ( except no battery tray -- threw it out! ) and hooked it up to the original wiring and BAM, it fired up immediately. Whew. What a relief.

His reasoning was ( he works on electrical and fuel systems for a living ) that various relays and sensors ( CPS ) weren't getting the voltage they needed to send the proper info to the ECM to start the car. Too much voltage loss with the long cable to the trunk. I'm going to mount the battery in the passenger footwell, where the cable will be just a few feet longer than if I used the stock underhood location and ran the cable to the interior kill-switch. I suppose I could double-up the on the cable and leave it in the trunk, but relocation to the footwell should work fine.

I can't believe I didn't think of this before that missed race back in Oct '15. Mounting the battery in the trunk was the ONLY change I made before that race, and it never came to mind. Live and learn I guess.

Off to Alabama in three days. Wish us luck!
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Old January 29th, 2018, 03:03 PM   #25
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What gauge battery cable did you use to the trunk ?
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