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2nd Gen (93-97) V6 2.5L Archive Quality Archived Posts and FAQs

 
 
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Old July 1st, 2004, 06:32 PM   #76
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The DR124 is the 7 pin module, think it has something to do with emmisions because Ive noticed the CA modules for the 81 chevette are the 7pin. Might be they changed the 83 caprice in the US and not Canada in 83.
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Old July 1st, 2004, 07:16 PM   #77
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ahhhhh gotcha.

so it's supposed to get hot then? you should see the heatsink we made
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Old July 1st, 2004, 08:02 PM   #78
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Make sure you use a minimum of wire, use good solder technique, use larger gauge wire and make sure you ground the module really well. The module tends to heat up more than necessary when it sees too much resistance.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 05:38 PM   #79
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The seven pin jobbie allows the HEI to either use the ECU for trigger pulses or use the magnetic star wheel in the disty for trigger pulses. The ECU decides which one to usebased on engine RPM's among other things.
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Old July 4th, 2004, 03:02 PM   #80
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Mine was getting really hot also. It helps to keep the wire lenght as short as possible and I used awg 16 wire for all. Now I can touch it again without blistering my finger.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 03:58 PM   #81
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I just did this mod and here is what I noticed...

First things first, my car was running fine before I did this mod. I wanted to see if there would be any performance gains in doing this. Plus, its a cheap mod so if I gained nothing performance wise, I could if ever need be, replace the GM HEI in a matter of 30 mins or less. Also, my car has just under 73,000 miles on it.


It took me about 3 hours of my time, yeah yeah...but that included the time it took to go to the store and buy Wells part # DR-100 and come home and find all my tools. Part cost me $15.99 at Autozone. I had some 16 AWG wire laying around and used that along with some wire crimps I had. So far this has been a really cheap mod. I placed the HEI behind the drivers side head lamp and used a hole that was already there as my ground to bolt to. I had to remove my bat. to get easy access to the hole. I then covered my wires with black wire tubing...you know the same stuff that the factory uses to cover its wires. Looks good...anyway...

Jumped in and started her up...everything seems fine. Ok, lets go for a spin! I back out of the driveway and play with the throttle a bit. I love the sound my Probe GT makes. I have a flowmaster series 30 or 40...haha I can't remember which. Plus a resinator tip, soon to have a test pipe also. Ok, back to the drive...I noticed that it seemed to rev smoother....hmmmm....ok. So after I let her warm up a bit I give her some gas and off I go. It feels like she is pulling a bit harder than before. After spending about 45 min behind the wheel and drive out along the twisty back roads, I have come to the conclusion that the GM HEI helped my car.

Now, what did it really do? I am not really sure. Was my stock module not performing 100% ? I didn't notice anything wrong with it. But that's not to say there wasn't. What I do know is that the car pulls harder and smoother. It is very noticable to me at higher RPMs as well. Like about 4000 +. Is the GM HEI a more efficent unit? What can it do better than the stock Probe unit? I dont know...all I know is that I am glad I did it. And I would like to thank the guy that wrote up the article in the first place. The pics helped out tons as well!

By-the-way...this mod works on lots of other cars. I have seen them done to the older Z cars as well.

Just my thoughts,
Jason
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Old July 11th, 2004, 05:03 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwink25
Is the GM HEI a more efficent unit? What can it do better than the stock Probe unit? I dont know...all I know is that I am glad I did it. And I would like to thank the guy that wrote up the article in the first place. The pics helped out tons as well!

By-the-way...this mod works on lots of other cars. I have seen them done to the older Z cars as well.

Just my thoughts,
Jason
The fatness of the spark is proportional to how much current the coil's primary can soak up. The HEI module provides around 4 or 5 amps of primary current. The stock Probe module probably does less. Aftermarket HEI modules do maybe 7 or 8 amps.

If you get an external HEI coil it will probably be even better yet.

I'm glad it worked well for you. I kicked off this whole thing because I'm cheap. I never immagined how well this mod would take off!
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Old July 11th, 2004, 07:19 PM   #83
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If I were spending your money on HEI upgrades, I'd get a HEI module and its matching coil from someplace like Accel or MSD. I'd buy an already done cap if they're quality made.

Make sure the 'B' wire and 'C' wires are big-at least 16ga if they're short. Also make sure the ground is secure too.
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Old July 12th, 2004, 10:38 PM   #84
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so my HEI is actually as cool as the air temp around it, now that i hooked up back to stock ignition for right now. before, i was running megasquirt ignition, with an experimental circuit controlilng the HEI, pulling way too much current I believe, and it possibly blew the transistor in the megasquirt.
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Old July 19th, 2004, 11:42 AM   #85
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Will this work if I'm getting an NE1 (CKP2) error code 04?
Make sure it's the sensore first by following these steps:

1.Make sure the NE2 connector and PCM connectors are clean and tight. Re-seat if necessary.

2.Check the resistance of the NE2 sensor. Unplug it and use an ohmmeter to measure the resistance across the two sensor pins which are the DB and DG wires. It should measure between 520 and 580 ohms.

3.Check for a short between the DB and DG wires and the BK/R wire (ground). If there is a short, the harness has a short.

If it is indeed the sensor, you must get a working CKP (NE2) from another disty or a new/reman disty. Nobody sells the sensor seperatly new.

Last edited by KevinD; March 8th, 2007 at 06:52 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2004, 06:07 PM   #86
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Very worthwhile mod.

Even if the Ignitor is working in your car, spend the $15 and do this mod.

My car runs so much smoother now, at idle and throughout the powerband. My disty is a remanufactured unit from advance with 15K on it. You would think that it would work perfectly, but after the results from installing the HEI, it is obvious that it wasn't.




I think that the HEI works better than and MSD6A & Blaster 2 coil.
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Old July 27th, 2004, 09:13 AM   #87
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The difference is that on the 95 two wires on the three wire plug are switched around. The signal wire from the other plug (Blue/orange) is the same. I did mine back in May so I'm not 100% sure which wires were switched around. I'll report back here after I get to the car and look.



BTW I was thinking that if the ignitor AND coil are bypassed, then a 93-4 distributor and cap could be used on a 95 because the three wire plug doesn't get plugged into the distributor. However, a 95 distributor could NOT be used on a 93-4 because the 95 distributor lacks a 'crank position sensor'.

Can anyone back this up or tell me I'm wrong?
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Old August 4th, 2004, 10:12 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bialy
This mod will save lots of people lots of money. It is also a good basis for real ignition upgrades.

After 173,000 miles, my ignitor finally bit the dust. Not wanting to spend $224 for another one, or an equal amount for a feeble MSD, I wired in a $20 (Wells #DR-100) generic GM 4-pin HEI module instead.

In a nutshell:

The ECU's trigger output wire (BL/O) feeds the HEI's pin 'G'.
Ground the HEI's pin 'W'.
Ground the HEI's base.
HEI's pin 'B' taps into the +12V dizzy feed wire (BK/P).
HEI's pin 'C' taps into the coil's primary wire (Y/G).
Remove the internal strap connecting the old ignitor to the coil plug center terminal.

I mounted the HEI module on a bracket next to the LH headlamp.

If $20 is too steep, head to the wreckers and get a used module for a buck or two. Almost every GM car from the mid 70's to the mid 80's has one.

If you don't want the stock coil, it would be just as simple to use an external coil if you add the extra terminal to the cap for it. Lotsa places have hi-perf. HEI modules and HEI specific hi-perf. coils too.
There is no need for: "Remove the internal strap connecting the old ignitor to the coil plug center terminal." Instead simply cut Pin5 wire and internal transistor is disabled! There is no need for removing internal strap in distributor!

I started new tread: Cheap, cheap, cheap: $18 HEI ignitor as backup to STOCK ignitor, volunteers needed
where I explained idea: http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701114166


Any comments are welcome
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Old August 5th, 2004, 01:46 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuki
There is no need for: "Remove the internal strap connecting the old ignitor to the coil plug center terminal." Instead simply cut Pin5 wire and internal transistor is disabled! There is no need for removing internal strap in distributor!

I started new tread: Cheap, cheap, cheap: $18 HEI ignitor as backup to STOCK ignitor, volunteers needed
where I explained idea: http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701114166


Any comments are welcome
That depends upon how the internal ignitor failed. If its output transistor is still intact you won't need to cut that strap. If it leaks as it is gets warm, you'll need to get it out of there.

The only way to find out is to try it. If it doesn't work, you'll need to tear into it again and remove the strap. I wasn't about to mess with that problematic distributor twice in the middle of winter, so I took the sure way and cut it out.
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Old August 5th, 2004, 02:56 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by kuki
No matter how internal ignitor failed, by cutting Pin-5 and Pin-6 ignitor is disconnected. Ignitor is 3-terminal device, and by leaving only one terminal (internal strap) connected inside distributor changes nothing. Ignitor is disabled, he can't leak because for leak you need at least two terminals or one terminal and ground, and Pin-5 is Ignitors ground.

By the way, are you still running on that HEI module? How many miles? I am little bit woried about matching impendance beetween PCM (computer) and HEI (G) pin. If there is now good match it can overload PCM ignition output and burn him, so I am looking to put opto-coupler beetween them to isolate PCM from HEI ignitor. Internal schematic of HEI module would be helpfull. Also it is questionable how HEI module behaves in the case of failure. If he has bad insulation (and I think that's true) he will burn PCM. That's the reason of using IGBT transistor on stock module. But opto-coupler can prevent that.
If what you say is correct, than you're right, one wire won't mean anything. However, I think you're grounds are confused. The trigger ground is through pin 5, but the power ground for the output driver is probably through the distributor body, not much different than how the HEI grounds itself through its mounting hole. The ignitor will pass around 4 or 5 amps as it charges the coil, I don't think Mazda would run that much current through that dinky wire on pin 5. It is also a noisy circuit too as the coil dumps and recharges.

The reason HEI modules are nice is because they do not load the input at all. They are really made to work with high-Z reluctors, consequently the PCM is less loaded than it originally was. An opto coupler will consume far more current from the PCM than the HEI module does or even the stock ingitor unless its buffered.

Search for Motorola's "MC3444" IC.That is the heart of the HEI, and in fact the data sheet will tell you enough to build your own module. Sad that the chip is obsolete and not commonly available AFAIK. With this chip between the PCM and the driver though, I doubt if you'll see any thunderbolts going back to the PCM.

IGBT is used in the stock module just like it is used in any inductive ignition, high breakdown voltage>350V and low on resistance. Some ignition drivers don't even need the Zener snubber. You will note that the stock ignitor also has a small signal transistor driving that IGBT. THAT is what protects the PCM when the ignitor dies a violent death. Contrary to Julian Bradbury's comment on his otherwise superior website about it not being needed, it is very much needed- to protect that PCM.

I would spend time adapting the '7 pin' HEI module to this car if I was going to do anything new here.

My Probe's been gone for a few months now. Some guy in Lansing bought it, but I'm sure its still running like a top though. I had to make room for the XJR I'm picking up next week. Also known as a "four door Ferrari"
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Old August 5th, 2004, 05:32 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bialy
If what you say is correct, than you're right, one wire won't mean anything. However, I think you're grounds are confused. The trigger ground is through pin 5, but the power ground for the output driver is probably through the distributor body, not much different than how the HEI grounds itself through its mounting hole. The ignitor will pass around 4 or 5 amps as it charges the coil, I don't think Mazda would run that much current through that dinky wire on pin 5. It is also a noisy circuit too as the coil dumps and recharges.

The reason HEI modules are nice is because they do not load the input at all. They are really made to work with high-Z reluctors, consequently the PCM is less loaded than it originally was. An opto coupler will consume far more current from the PCM than the HEI module does or even the stock ingitor unless its buffered.

Search for Motorola's "MC3444" IC.That is the heart of the HEI, and in fact the data sheet will tell you enough to build your own module. Sad that the chip is obsolete and not commonly available AFAIK. With this chip between the PCM and the driver though, I doubt if you'll see any thunderbolts going back to the PCM.

IGBT is used in the stock module just like it is used in any inductive ignition, high breakdown voltage>350V and low on resistance. Some ignition drivers don't even need the Zener snubber. You will note that the stock ignitor also has a small signal transistor driving that IGBT. THAT is what protects the PCM when the ignitor dies a violent death. Contrary to Julian Bradbury's comment on his otherwise superior website about it not being needed, it is very much needed- to protect that PCM.

I would spend time adapting the '7 pin' HEI module to this car if I was going to do anything new here.

My Probe's been gone for a few months now. Some guy in Lansing bought it, but I'm sure its still running like a top though. I had to make room for the XJR I'm picking up next week. Also known as a "four door Ferrari"
Now, I'm confused. You are talking about schematic on http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy...obemx/p_p4.htm

It looks like I have new design with IGBT and not one on above schematic. It would be helpfull if someone can take picture of old design (after opening metal cover that is sealed in plastic) and new Mitsubishi design with IGBT that I have. They are completely different.

Well, hmm, then maybe we can change Title of this tread to:

$2.7 Ignitor Replacement/upgrade

Cheap, cheap, cheap ...

Well part number is:

Fairchild Semiconductor ISL9V3040P3
TO-220AB, SINGLE, N-CH, 400V, 300MJ ECOSPARK IGNITION IGBT
Datasheet: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/IS/ISL9V3040P3.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/IS%2FISL9V3040P3.html
Price: $1.96 !!!!

But they are available in small quantites from http://www.newark.com for $2.700

http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebComme...jsp?id=82C6135

Beat me now if you can.

It looks like exact replacement 430V, 17A at 110 C TO-220AB at least for mine new design. It would be helpfull if someone can take pictures of dissasembled ignitor so we can come finnaly with some realy cheap fix.
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Old August 5th, 2004, 06:11 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuki
Beat me now if you can.
I didn't know this was a contest

The object of this exercise for me, anyhow, was to provide a simple soluition to an expensive problem that doesn't require years of rocket science experience to figure out. Sure, a $2.70 transistor will work well, but how many people here on PT even know what a TO220 anything is, much less how to solder it in correctly etc, etc. Look back through the 5 pages of posts this generated and see how confusing W-G-B-C and ground are to those less fortunate than you and me. Don't expect those same people to solder now.

All the technology in the world is pretty much a curiosty at best if someonedoesn't understand it. That's what serparates the geeks from the jocks from the well rounded average normal guys who are far in the majority here.
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Old August 5th, 2004, 07:57 PM   #93
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Yea, I have no clue what I'm doing with electronic and I don't really have a desire too.

However I really want to hook up my HEI and external coil tomorrow providing my disty cap is here. I'm very good at figuring things out and if I know what wires do what, then I can follow the diagram and get it done. I just need to find a wiring diagram of the three prong plug on the 95disty.

I do have a few questions though if anyone can answer...

1) On the 6 pin connector I just splice into that wire, but keep it hooked up right?
2) On the 3 pin, I just splice into the correct wires, leaving them connected to the harness, but unplug the harness from the disty correct?
3) The wires that are switched on the 95 disty plug are the two yellow wires on the 3 prong plug right? So I should just follow the steps for the 93/94 however when it comes to those two wires, I hook them up in reverse?
4) Since I am hooking up an external coil, I can leave the ignitor intact and just unplug the 3 prong harness right?

Thanks. I know this has been covered, at least most of it but I wanted to ask it using my own words just to make sure I had all this down.
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Old August 5th, 2004, 08:17 PM   #94
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I think you cut the wire on pin 6. the rest seems OK to me.
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Old August 6th, 2004, 01:20 AM   #95
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Ok, I have a question about the wiring for this using an external MSD coil.

I already made a disty cap with the terminal sticking up out of the top for the coil, but when I wired everything together, the car wouldn't start, just cranked. The HEI module got very hot too when I had the key in "ignition on" mode.

I'm using a spare distributor I have which has a defunct ignitor. I cut off that strap and removed the entire 3-plug connector from the distributor, including the entire OEM ignition coil. All that is inside the distributor is the main module and the two metal rotor things.


Just to double check my wiring, could you guys look at this diagram and tell me if its accurate?

http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/att...tid=4428&stc=1

In that pic it shows that I cut off that 3-plug clip from the harness, but the connections are going to their respective wires on my install.

Also, I have a question about the 6-plug wire that you have to use for terminal "G" on the HEI. Do you have to cut the wire off of the engine harness plug and route that wire to the HEI "G" terminal? Or do you simple "tap into" the engine harness wire signal with a splice?

I spliced that wire when I installed mine. Just making sure.

Thanks guys!
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Old August 6th, 2004, 09:41 AM   #96
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Actually, the '95 disty is the same as the '96-'97 disty
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Old August 6th, 2004, 09:43 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gro Harlem
Ok, I have a question about the wiring for this using an external MSD coil.

I already made a disty cap with the terminal sticking up out of the top for the coil, but when I wired everything together, the car wouldn't start, just cranked. The HEI module got very hot too when I had the key in "ignition on" mode.

I'm using a spare distributor I have which has a defunct ignitor. I cut off that strap and removed the entire 3-plug connector from the distributor, including the entire OEM ignition coil. All that is inside the distributor is the main module and the two metal rotor things.


Just to double check my wiring, could you guys look at this diagram and tell me if its accurate?

http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/att...tid=4428&stc=1

In that pic it shows that I cut off that 3-plug clip from the harness, but the connections are going to their respective wires on my install.

Also, I have a question about the 6-plug wire that you have to use for terminal "G" on the HEI. Do you have to cut the wire off of the engine harness plug and route that wire to the HEI "G" terminal? Or do you simple "tap into" the engine harness wire signal with a splice?

I spliced that wire when I installed mine. Just making sure.

Thanks guys!
Pull the connection off of pin "G" and see if the module still gets hot. If so, you have some problem with pin 6. Measure the voltage at pin 6, it should be almost zero, with a short 'blip' each time it wants to make a spark. If its not zero, you have ECM trouble, or are on the wrong wire (hopefully) or the HEI unit is bad.
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Old August 12th, 2004, 05:59 AM   #98
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Question: is this a modification you do when your stock ignitor is broken or is it a mod you do anyways, because it gives better sparks? Ive read the first 3 pages and its a bit unclear what you accomplish.
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Old August 12th, 2004, 02:13 PM   #99
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Question: is this a modification you do when your stock ignitor is broken or is it a mod you do anyways, because it gives better sparks? Ive read the first 3 pages and its a bit unclear what you accomplish.
Both. If you have the older prone to failure ignitor why wait till it runs out of sparks in traffic before you fix it?

With an aftermarket coil, you will have better sparks.
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Old August 16th, 2004, 12:29 PM   #100
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Ok, I have a 97 GT and I have wired up this entire mod properly and I am still getting no spark. Most likely this is because I still have not disconnected the old igniter. The couple of responses to this question were unclear. Which pin should actually be disconnected and can you get away with just cutting the wire on the ecu side as opposed to ripping the pin out of the distributor side?
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