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Old July 30th, 2017, 11:11 AM   #176
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Only thing left to do for the motor to be rebuilt is engine gasket set, new oem oil pump, Mazda 626 adjustable hlas and arp head studs. I have everything else.

Once I get my wheels then I'll measure for my fender flares.

I already know what my up front goals are it's just now having the money for the parts.
I think you mean 626 adjustable SLA's, in which case I actually have a set for sale if you're interested.

I also have a set of fender flares that I ended up deciding against, but that fit the PGT lines pretty well... let me know if you'd like to check those out as well.

I'm curious what your goals are. I actually came up with my goals list recently, despite building my car for years and years. My goals are to make over 200whp N/A, have the car weigh under 2300 lbs, and run in the 13's N/A.
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Old July 30th, 2017, 12:17 PM   #177
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I think you mean 626 adjustable SLA's, in which case I actually have a set for sale if you're interested.

I also have a set of fender flares that I ended up deciding against, but that fit the PGT lines pretty well... let me know if you'd like to check those out as well.

I'm curious what your goals are. I actually came up with my goals list recently, despite building my car for years and years. My goals are to make over 200whp N/A, have the car weigh under 2300 lbs, and run in the 13's N/A.
I'm definitely interested. How much? I need them to run my cams.

Once I get my wheels and measure everything out I'll definitely hit you up for the flares if they are the right size.

Goals honestly is to make a street warrior and look good doing it at the same time. That's why I've decided air instead of my coil setup. My lip kit and wheels will complement the air ride so lovely.

Wait till you see my diffuser set up with dual exit exhaust.

Engine setup is like Mac1 vitara piston and milly s rod combo. Gives you a hint in the area where I want my hp goals.
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Old July 30th, 2017, 03:50 PM   #178
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So this is pretty much what I assumed... in that you really don't have a goal. "Good looking street warrior" is an abstract idea. Millenia S rod/Vitara piston combo isn't a specific amount of power.

My suggestion is that you actually sit down and decide what you want out of this. What in your mind would make your car a good looking street warrior? Is it a specific wheel/tire size, is it a custom paint job, is it a specific ride height? How much power do you actually want, how often will you drive it, and how reliable do you need it to be? Why do you want that amount of power? Is it to outrun a certain car, or run a certain time at the track... or is it just bragging rights?

I'd suggest these are the things you need to get down on paper. Come to a conclusion of what would make you "happy" with this car, all said and done. Then come up with a basic estimate of what this is going cost, multiply that by 2x, and ask yourself, is it really worth that?

I dunno, maybe I'm bitter and old, but this is how I look at my own project now!
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Old July 30th, 2017, 04:28 PM   #179
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[QUOTE=Stanced4lyfe;1924194942

Think that would hold to my 450whp goals?[/QUOTE]



this is his posted goal (post #159)

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Old July 30th, 2017, 04:38 PM   #180
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so let's do some math 450whp in a front wheel drive car is roughly somewhere between 510 to 520 at the crank you figure you get a roughly 13 to 15 percent lost from crank to wheels to the ground by being front wheel drive

if it was rear wheel drive the percentage lost would be higher


also stance4lyf i think the turbo you have may be too big for your car that turbo if im not mistaken

came off a 6.5 liter diesel engine (you don't want a turbo that makes full boost after the quarter mile is over)

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Old July 30th, 2017, 06:15 PM   #181
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So this is pretty much what I assumed... in that you really don't have a goal. "Good looking street warrior" is an abstract idea. Millenia S rod/Vitara piston combo isn't a specific amount of power.

My suggestion is that you actually sit down and decide what you want out of this. What in your mind would make your car a good looking street warrior? Is it a specific wheel/tire size, is it a custom paint job, is it a specific ride height? How much power do you actually want, how often will you drive it, and how reliable do you need it to be? Why do you want that amount of power? Is it to outrun a certain car, or run a certain time at the track... or is it just bragging rights?

I'd suggest these are the things you need to get down on paper. Come to a conclusion of what would make you "happy" with this car, all said and done. Then come up with a basic estimate of what this is going cost, multiply that by 2x, and ask yourself, is it really worth that?

I dunno, maybe I'm bitter and old, but this is how I look at my own project now!
He answered your question lol this whole setup is based around my 450whp goals. I seriously have everything planned out. I know what I want in this car.

It's not just random parts thrown together. It's parts I'm buying to withstand the abuse of power I want to throw at it.

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so let's do some math 450whp in a front wheel drive car is roughly somewhere between 510 to 520 at the crank you figure you get a roughly 13 to 15 percent lost from crank to wheels to the ground by being front wheel drive

if it was rear wheel drive the percentage lost would be higher


also stance4lyf i think the turbo you have may be too big for your car that turbo if im not mistaken

came off a 6.5 liter diesel engine (you don't want a turbo that makes full boost after the quarter mile is over)
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this is his posted goal (post #159)
That turbo did come off a chevy 6.5L. Honda guys have used it Alot. 1.5L-2.0L motors. The guy I bought this off of used it on his Honda. Boosted at 10 psi and it was fine for him.

I figured it would work perfectly fine with our 2.5L motor after all the threads I've read from the Honda guys. Plus with Mac 1 piston and rod combo being low compression I can throw some psi at it.

Another reason why I got this Turbo.
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Old July 30th, 2017, 09:18 PM   #182
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so let's do some math 450whp in a front wheel drive car is roughly somewhere between 510 to 520 at the crank you figure you get a roughly 13 to 15 percent lost from crank to wheels to the ground by being front wheel drive

if it was rear wheel drive the percentage lost would be higher
I never believed that, or I believe it is used wrong.

Lets use my 1st Probe when I first dyno'ed it when it was stock. Stock rated CHP = 164 and at the wheels WHP = 143 (I know all dynos are different, etc.). That's about 13% or 21 HP drive line loss.

I believe that 21HP is the drive line loss no matter how much HP I add after that. I do believe that if I add lighter or heavier wheels, flywheel, pulleys, brakes, it will affect the drive line loss.

Example..

Stock engine = 164 CHP with 21HP(13%) drive line loss = 143 WHP. Add a 150(HP) shot of nitrous oxide. Using the discovered drive line loss above (21HP) it should be 293 WHP and 314 CHP. Using the 13% drive line loss would be 293 WHP and 337 CHP. Somehow, now the same drive line grew to a 43HP loss? That is double the loss by just adding HP. How does the same drive line become less efficient by adding more HP?

The only way to be accurate would be to dyno your car then take out the engine and have it dynoed. But no one is going to do that. Plus it would be between two different dynos and other variables.
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Old July 31st, 2017, 08:04 AM   #183
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I never believed that, or I believe it is used wrong.

Lets use my 1st Probe when I first dyno'ed it when it was stock. Stock rated CHP = 164 and at the wheels WHP = 143 (I know all dynos are different, etc.). That's about 13% or 21 HP drive line loss.

I believe that 21HP is the drive line loss no matter how much HP I add after that. I do believe that if I add lighter or heavier wheels, flywheel, pulleys, brakes, it will affect the drive line loss.

Example..

Stock engine = 164 CHP with 21HP(13%) drive line loss = 143 WHP. Add a 150(HP) shot of nitrous oxide. Using the discovered drive line loss above (21HP) it should be 293 WHP and 314 CHP. Using the 13% drive line loss would be 293 WHP and 337 CHP. Somehow, now the same drive line grew to a 43HP loss? That is double the loss by just adding HP. How does the same drive line become less efficient by adding more HP?

The only way to be accurate would be to dyno your car then take out the engine and have it dynoed. But no one is going to do that. Plus it would be between two different dynos and other variables.

thats why my quote said roughly that type of lost meaning (estimate) alot things determine your lost from flywheel to ground any changes in parts or weight can effect everything
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Old July 31st, 2017, 09:13 AM   #184
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Ok so my main power goals are around 450whp and like y'all said around 510, 520 chp. My whole engine and exhaust mods list is put together and based around that. Turbo kit as well.

Wheel setup and suspension is all based around having a reliable setup for my power goals. I've done my research time and time again and asked Mac 1 and klze porsche a thousand questions. I have many pms with them on my setup.

I do have a set goals list and I know what I'm aiming for. This whole build will be crazy. Trust me I've chosen this car to go all out on for a reason.

I won't disappoint and I thank all y'all for the very valuable information and advice. The ogs on this forum are great.
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Old July 31st, 2017, 09:43 AM   #185
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That turbo did come off a chevy 6.5L. Honda guys have used it Alot. 1.5L-2.0L motors. The guy I bought this off of used it on his Honda. Boosted at 10 psi and it was fine for him.

I figured it would work perfectly fine with our 2.5L motor after all the threads I've read from the Honda guys. Plus with Mac 1 piston and rod combo being low compression I can throw some psi at it.

Another reason why I got this Turbo.

remember I always tell everyone whether I agree with them or disagree with them at the end of the day it is your car and if you happy with it then thats all that matters so if thats your turbo of choice then its all good

but in the end I don't think you will be happy with this turbo because i think it will be too laggy for the street unless you doing 60 to 100mph races but from a stand still lag is gonna kill you unless you spray the car on the bottom end

diesel turbos are not known for making boost at low rpms
also comparing a probe to a honda is hard there are alot of variables

hondas rev higher than we do
hondas also in most built cars run higher compression than what we run I've seen some honda running as high as 12:5:1 to 13:1 on boost

and the famous vtec

if you really want to be competitive on the street the ideal turbo would be a mid range to top end turbo


but like I said at then end of the day it's your car and what makes you happy is all that matters

So good luck with your build hope you get what you are looking for



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Old July 31st, 2017, 10:55 AM   #186
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remember I always tell everyone whether I agree with them or disagree with them at the end of the day it is your car and if you happy with it then thats all that matters so if thats your turbo of choice then its all good

but in the end I don't think you will be happy with this turbo because i think it will be too laggy for the street unless you doing 60 to 100mph races but from a stand still lag is gonna kill you unless you spray the car on the bottom end

diesel turbos are not known for making boost at low rpms
also comparing a probe to a honda is hard there are alot of variables

hondas rev higher than we do
hondas also in most built cars run higher compression than what we run I've seen some honda running as high as 12:5:1 to 13:1 on boost

and the famous vtec

if you really want to be competitive on the street the ideal turbo would be a mid range to top end turbo


but like I said at then end of the day it's your car and what makes you happy is all that matters

So good luck with your build hope you get what you are looking for


I'll give it a try. If I don't like it, I don't mind swapping it for something else. Figured this Turbo would be great for the low compression and supporting mods.

Thanks you sir once again. All your help is much appreciated.
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Old July 31st, 2017, 03:07 PM   #187
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thats why my quote said roughly that type of lost meaning (estimate) alot things determine your lost from flywheel to ground any changes in parts or weight can effect everything
Yeah, but your math has a loss of 60-70 HP? That is almost half the HP of the stock NA engine through the same transmission to wheels?

But the loss of a stock engine 164 CHP to the ~143 WHP = 21 HP loss. He should be making ~470 CHP with a 450 WHP. (but not for long... )
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 08:29 AM   #188
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Yeah, but your math has a loss of 60-70 HP? That is almost half the HP of the stock NA engine through the same transmission to wheels?

But the loss of a stock engine 164 CHP to the ~143 WHP = 21 HP loss. He should be making ~470 CHP with a 450 WHP. (but not for long... )
https://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php

According to this calculator 511 crank hp is 450whp but we will find out once I get to a dyno and the motor put in.

I've been talking to a few people and tuners and finally found me a local guy with experience on megasquirt and Mazda motors. Getting closer everyday.

I have a few more goodies that showed up this week Np pictures yet.

My cams should be done and shipped back to me next week.

As for the turbo kit all I need is the rest of my fuel parts, oil lines, tapped pan and gauges.

Motor build all I need is oem oil pump, arp stud kit, gasket set, port and Polish, Mazda 626 slas and we good to go there.

Long build but it's progressing.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 10:05 AM   #189
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https://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php

According to this calculator 511 crank hp is 450whp but we will find out once I get to a dyno and the motor put in.
So, using that drive line loss calculation with a 2500HP car (like in the show Street Outlaws), they are losing 500+ HP through their transmission to the wheels. So If you took out 2000 HP the transmission would eat up the last 500 HP? They need 500+ HP just to get the car to move?

That calculation can only be used with a known engine CHP number and subtracting the WHP. That will tell you the drive line loss. When used the other other way around after adding HP and getting a new WHP, you are only inflating your CHP numbers. (It calculates ~16% for our car = 26 HP loss)


I give up.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 12:23 PM   #190
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So, using that drive line loss calculation with a 2500HP car (like in the show Street Outlaws), they are losing 500+ HP through their transmission to the wheels. So If you took out 2000 HP the transmission would eat up the last 500 HP? They need 500+ HP just to get the car to move?

you cant compare fully built race cars to street cars there are alot of variables like those cars are mostly fiber glass or carbon fiber tube chassis they weigh lighter



also you might want to look at this Supra dyno sheet

this car made 845hp but only made 645lb of torque thats roughly a 200hp difference and everyone knows horsepower doesnt move cars torque does



here's a different car with roughly a 20% lost


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Old August 3rd, 2017, 01:35 PM   #191
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you cant compare fully built race cars to street cars there are alot of variables like those cars are mostly fiber glass or carbon fiber tube chassis they weigh lighter



also you might want to look at this Supra dyno sheet

this car made 845hp but only made 645lb of torque thats roughly a 200hp difference and everyone knows horsepower doesnt move cars torque does

http://maseengineering.com/images/up...supra_dyno.gif

here's a different car with roughly a 20% lost

http://image.superstreetonline.com/f...dyno_graph.jpg
Honestly this argument didn't make any sense. What does the weight and material of the body of a car have to do with power output? Also, SBPGT is talking whp vs chp and for some reason you seem to be mistaking this as a hp vs tq?

To add to this conversation, I do agree with SBPGT, that drive line losses wont be a percentage (say 16%) that remains consistent across power levels. However it also wont be a consistent specific power loss (in SBPGT's example 21hp) across power levels. I imagine it should be thought of more as a mix of the two... a constant loss plus a percentage loss. The constant loss will be a fixed amount based upon the turning the gears/axles/wheels/rotors/etc. The percentage loss will be based upon power being turned into heat in the trans/diff/ etc.

So as SBPGT has pointed out, you really cant accurately calculate going backwards (whp->chp) because it's incorrect to assume that if power doubles drive train losses will double.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 02:04 PM   #192
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Honestly this argument didn't make any sense. What does the weight and material of the body of a car have to do with power output? Also, SBPGT is talking whp vs chp and for some reason you seem to be mistaking this as a hp vs tq?

To add to this conversation, I do agree with SBPGT, that drive line losses wont be a percentage (say 16%) that remains consistent across power levels. However it also wont be a consistent specific power loss (in SBPGT's example 21hp) across power levels. I imagine it should be thought of more as a mix of the two... a constant loss plus a percentage loss. The constant loss will be a fixed amount based upon the turning the gears/axles/wheels/rotors/etc. The percentage loss will be based upon power being turned into heat in the trans/diff/ etc.

So as SBPGT has pointed out, you really cant accurately calculate going backwards (whp->chp) because it's incorrect to assume that if power doubles drive train losses will double.
it sometimes makes a difference in what a car put to the ground a simple thing like heavy wheels and light wheels, engine parts when it comes to rotating mass affects it too clutch fylwheel type of crankshaft etc


Ford probe stock 164hp 145 wheel thats roughly a 12% drop

at the end of the day every car is not the same and no one well at least I never said that the math was accurate

What I said it was a estimate

and what he said about the 500hp to move a car i never agreed or suggested that statement

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Old August 3rd, 2017, 04:12 PM   #193
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it sometimes makes a difference in what a car put to the ground a simple thing like heavy wheels and light wheels, engine parts when it comes to rotating mass affects it too clutch flywheel type of crankshaft etc
Of course it does, but from my first example above....

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBPGT View Post

Example..

Stock engine = 164 CHP with 21HP(13%) drive line loss = 143 WHP. Add a 150(HP) shot of nitrous oxide. Using the discovered drive line loss above (21HP) it should be 293 WHP and 314 CHP. Using the 13% drive line loss would be 293 WHP and 337 CHP. Somehow, now the same drive line grew to a 43HP loss? That is double the loss by just adding HP. How does the same drive line become less efficient by adding more HP?
No heavier wheels or tires, heavier brakes rotors, heavier axles, heavier flywheels, heavier rods and pistons, heavier crank pulley, more belt driven accessories, thicker oil, stiffer valve springs, etc... Nothing has changed accept adding 150 hp of Nitrous. Lets also assume the bottle is on the ground next to the dyno so the weight of the bottle doesn't affect anything.

Q: How does the the same drive line suck up another ~20 HP?

I have FD wheels now, so I can't use the same 21 HP loss from when my car was stock. I would think it hasn't changed too much. Maybe my car has 20 hp loss now instead of 21 HP? I'm just saying for the most part that the ratio of loss doesn't stay constant. Once you start modifying things it's pretty much useless. It is good to get it done when you are stock, to get an idea of what your car's drive line loss is and use it as a benchmark. That's ALSO assuming the factory rated HP numbers are correct, and what type, and how accurate the dyno is that you take your car to.

Not arguing, just discussing....

Continue with the BUILD!
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Old August 8th, 2017, 05:25 PM   #194
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Of course it does, but from my first example above....



No heavier wheels or tires, heavier brakes rotors, heavier axles, heavier flywheels, heavier rods and pistons, heavier crank pulley, more belt driven accessories, thicker oil, stiffer valve springs, etc... Nothing has changed accept adding 150 hp of Nitrous. Lets also assume the bottle is on the ground next to the dyno so the weight of the bottle doesn't affect anything.

Q: How does the the same drive line suck up another ~20 HP?

I have FD wheels now, so I can't use the same 21 HP loss from when my car was stock. I would think it hasn't changed too much. Maybe my car has 20 hp loss now instead of 21 HP? I'm just saying for the most part that the ratio of loss doesn't stay constant. Once you start modifying things it's pretty much useless. It is good to get it done when you are stock, to get an idea of what your car's drive line loss is and use it as a benchmark. That's ALSO assuming the factory rated HP numbers are correct, and what type, and how accurate the dyno is that you take your car to.

Not arguing, just discussing....

Continue with the BUILD!
This build shall continue! Lol that was a great read though.

Of course more parts showed up. Waiting on 3 people to purchase 3 more parts to knock off the list.

Intercooler, piping and the transmission rebuild kit.




Nothing special just more parts piling up.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 03:54 PM   #195
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Scored me a megasquirt pnp2 from a member on the Facebook page.




One of the big purchases $800 new bought for $375. Not bad.

Just need the tuning software and the cable then I'm good to go.

Also seen something else I would like to try. Have to get in the mad scientist lab and see if it will work.
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