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  • #16
    I'll dig up and post the picture of the retainer when I get home from work tonight.


    It was literally sheared exactly in half. I found the two pieces still in place between the HLA and the valve spring. A harder retainer is what's needed. This has only been a documented problem on KL31 heads, as they (probably) would use larger diameter retainers along with the larger HLA's and possibly larger springs?


    In some ways it's impressive how one shear destroyed a whole engine, and in other ways it's kind of depressing.





    Honestly, I would suspect that anyone interested in a serious performance build engine would want to use the KL31 (ZE) heads, just because of how much better the intake ports are from the factory. It'd take a *lot* of porting to take a KL head to that state.
    Greg Martin
    2009 BMW 328i
    2017 BMW X3
    1990 Probe LX

    Comment


    • #17
      Oh boy, lots to say here,

      First, increase the size of the oil passages will decrease the oil pressure.

      My re-ring kit from Flatlander had chrome ring for the top and the second ring was cast iron IIRC.

      There is no way shaving the heads will make 1/8 of slack in the belt. Every motor Alistair built that had shaved heads/block he did not need to take up for the slack in the belt, because its small enough for the stock tensioner to handle.

      Alistair has told me that the ZE retainers are the same as the KL03/DE retainers and he thinks the reason they break is because the ZE is a higher reving engine and they maybe they can't handle all the high rev's. Who really knows how these motors were driven back in Japan.

      I wouldn't buy a so-called High flow pump, just take the cover off of your old one and use a feeler guage to see if it still fits withing factory spec's. Only difference in the High flow pump is suppose to be tighter clearances, which really doesn't mean high flow at all.
      Mike Evans
      92 MX-3 GS MTX 2.5L
      93 MX-3 GS SE MTX 1.8L

      KL-DE/ZE, ZE ECU, KLZE pistons, Port/Polished DE heads, Stiffer Valve Springs, '96 Millenia Intake Manifold, 67mm TB, Clutchmasters Stage III, Fidanza Flywheel, and Walbro FP.

      Comment


      • #18
        First, increase the size of the oil passages will decrease the oil pressure.
        If the pump is shimmed, we're under the assumption we'll be increasing the oil pressure out of the pump, correct?


        With a normal trade-off between volume and velocity, if we enlarge the passages, thereby lowering the oil pressure (and also the velocity of the oil) in those passages, we're neither netting nor losing anything? If we are increasing the pressure (by shimming the pump) then we will end up with more oil in the end, no?


        My re-ring kit from Flatlander had chrome ring for the top and the second ring was cast iron IIRC.
        Good info.



        There is no way shaving the heads will make 1/8 of slack in the belt. Every motor Alistair built that had shaved heads/block he did not need to take up for the slack in the belt, because its small enough for the stock tensioner to handle.
        This was also my feeling. As I said, there is still the same number of teeth on every wheel, they'll still turn at the same rates in relation to one another. So long as we are not building them into interference engines (is the .055" number different for a ZE due to the non-dished pistons?), and the tensioners have enough ability to take up the slack, I think a good deck on the heads would be fine. More compression is good compression for us N/A guys.



        Alistair has told me that the ZE retainers are the same as the KL03/DE retainers and he thinks the reason they break is because the ZE is a higher reving engine.
        Score. So if someone comes up with a good strong steel retainer, we'll all benefit.
        Greg Martin
        2009 BMW 328i
        2017 BMW X3
        1990 Probe LX

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Zoso142
          There is no way shaving the heads will make 1/8 of slack in the belt. Every motor Alistair built that had shaved heads/block he did not need to take up for the slack in the belt, because its small enough for the stock tensioner to handle.
          I just showed you that it will make the perimeter the belt is required to travel more than 1/8" smaller. I don't know how much more the stock tensioner can compensate for (maybe 1/16", maybe 1/4"; like I said, I know very little).

          How much did Alistair shave? If he shaved .030" or .035" then he wouldn't have needed to make any changes, the Mazda Comp (which Coleman cited) said that .035" was the max without a different tensioner... they tend to be pretty accurate.
          -Chris C.
          Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD

          Comment


          • #20
            I would skip overboring because its expensive and odds are your block is fine.

            I would skip ceramic coatings because I did the coating and when I shine a light down into the spark plug hole all I see is black carbon on the pistons. I doubt it is doing anything.

            I would skip shotpeening because the weak spot on the rod is the cap stud. I didn't have any luck finding an ARP cap stud to use. You cannot really go bigger but maybe better.

            I would go with larger exhaust valves it you are planning on nitrous or boost. I am sure you can find a junk head in the forsale forum to take measurements from.

            I wouldn't modify the blocks oil passages. I would instead use high quality oil.

            If not building a motor for boost or juice I would just get a KLZE.

            TARMAC BLACK 2006 EVOLUTION 9 SPECIAL EDITION 430WHP

            JJM CUSTOM TUNE /// ETS FMIC /// HKS TBE EXHAUST /// BBK TURBO /// OHLINS COILOVERS /// FIC 1100 INJECTORS


            www.BOOSTEDFILMS.com

            MY CAR DOMAIN

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Jeff_Jeske
              I would skip overboring because its expensive and odds are your block is fine.

              Unless, like me, you've had the #5 piston seize on it's wrist pin (after smashing into a dropped intake valve) and score the hell out of the cylinder wall. In that case, it will need more than just rehoned, and if you can get marginally larger displacement, why not?
              Greg Martin
              2009 BMW 328i
              2017 BMW X3
              1990 Probe LX

              Comment


              • #22
                .020" over coated ZE pistons on shotpeened rods with a shimmed oil pump and slightly enlarged #6 oil passage. All nested under shaved heads with ported runners and larger exhaust valves, higher rate valve springs and stronger retainers; all new bearings, gaskets and junk and you're looking at a factory fresh motor basically. It can also be rebuilt again. (at .040").

                Like I said; this is primarily for people who are looking for high performance... otherwise a rebuild simply is not cost effective (well a nice freshening to a ZE would be nice).
                -Chris C.
                Cadillac ATS 3.6L AWD

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Probe 2C
                  .020" over coated ZE pistons on shotpeened rods with a shimmed oil pump and slightly enlarged #6 oil passage. All nested under shaved KL31 heads with ported runners and larger exhaust valves, higher rate valve springs and stronger retainers; all new bearings, gaskets and junk and you're looking at a factory fresh motor basically.

                  Build it with a .040" overbore from the start, add Mike Seli's street cams, using a KL31 intake manifold, and you're looking at what I will be running in my MX-6 a few thousand dollars from now.


                  Add to that my 65mm TB, KL31 ECU and JE50 VAF Borla and Testpipe, UDP, and Fidanza flywheel. I'll install it with whichever headers are best at the time. I'll put in a CM3. An adjustable FPR will be a necessity at that point.

                  I would hope that an engine like that could make 230+ HP at the crank, which would probably be about 200-210 HP at the wheels, N/A. Yes, please. I would like to be conservative with my expectations, #1 to not be disappointed, and #2 to be pleasantly surprised if I make more.

                  It'll be a fun motor. I will have every single possible bolt on, plus I'll have completely rebuilt the internals. At that point, boost would be my only alternative. I kinda like that. I plan on having a cryo-treated transmission with an LSD to drop in with the engine, also. It'll be a mean machine.
                  Greg Martin
                  2009 BMW 328i
                  2017 BMW X3
                  1990 Probe LX

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bufalo


                    I would hope that an engine like that could make 230+ HP at the crank, which would probably be about 200-210 HP at the wheels, N/A. Yes, please. I would like to be conservative with my expectations, #1 to not be disappointed, and #2 to be pleasantly surprised if I make more.
                    Um...probably not.

                    TARMAC BLACK 2006 EVOLUTION 9 SPECIAL EDITION 430WHP

                    JJM CUSTOM TUNE /// ETS FMIC /// HKS TBE EXHAUST /// BBK TURBO /// OHLINS COILOVERS /// FIC 1100 INJECTORS


                    www.BOOSTEDFILMS.com

                    MY CAR DOMAIN

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Ceramic coatings can actually be detrimental from what I have been reading..

                      Shotpeening is just cheap insurance if you already have the motor apart.

                      The new studs for the rods should be a fairly stock item? Surprised you couldn't find any.

                      Larger exhaust valves are always a good thing, and, once again, if you are in there already, might as well fix that too.

                      Okay, say you open oil passage #6:

                      One could use air to flow through to simulate fluid and do a differential pressure and check the various flow rates through the passage to the crank and know *exactly* how much, or what ratio of resistance is being seen by the incoming oil and know how much to open up the passage with respect to all the others.

                      Scientifically a sound premise, but I wouldn't do it without flowing the passages myself to make sure the resistance in each one was equal so as not to open it so much you starve the rest to get oil to #6.

                      Rob

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jeff_Jeske
                        Um...probably not.




                        Brand new KL-ZE: 197 HP with stock parts


                        To that we're adding:
                        * better cams
                        * slightly more displacement
                        * slightly more compression
                        * Complete complement of "bolt-ons"
                        * Ported heads / better valve flow

                        Why would 30 crank horsepower seem that out of the question? People get upwards of 20WHP on internally stock, 100k mile KL-DE's with just bolt-ons. Travis's factory crate ZE made 199 at the wheels with full bolt on's in 1999. That's the point I'd like to be at, and I don't think it's too much to expect.
                        Greg Martin
                        2009 BMW 328i
                        2017 BMW X3
                        1990 Probe LX

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I haven't yet seen a KLZE yank over 200HP on the dyno and that is with all bolt-ons, shaving, and polishing work.

                          OKAY.

                          UNSUBSCRIBED

                          TARMAC BLACK 2006 EVOLUTION 9 SPECIAL EDITION 430WHP

                          JJM CUSTOM TUNE /// ETS FMIC /// HKS TBE EXHAUST /// BBK TURBO /// OHLINS COILOVERS /// FIC 1100 INJECTORS


                          www.BOOSTEDFILMS.com

                          MY CAR DOMAIN

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jeff_Jeske
                            OKAY.


                            UNSUBSCRIBED

                            Cool, now we can get back to being productive.
                            Greg Martin
                            2009 BMW 328i
                            2017 BMW X3
                            1990 Probe LX

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bufalo
                              RE: head shaving and timing: What actually needs to be adjusted when the heads are resurfaced? Is it just the tensioning system? I can't see how putting the heads .035" closer to the crank would change anything in the actual cam timing. There is still a finite number of teeth on both the crank pulley and the cam pulley. I could see that if the tensioning system doesn't have enough range, that it would need some modification. What is the safe limit for the heads before this needs done? Is that the .035" number quoted before?
                              Ok, Greg, think of this.

                              First forget how many teeth are on the Timing belt. Then forget how far apart these teeth are spaced. Now think of this.

                              Say that you measure the distance from the centerline of the crankshaft to the centerline of the camshaft (exhaust on front head). Just for a out of the blue # you get say 24". Ok, now take a peice of string that is 24" long and hold it on the centerline of the crankshaft and wrap the other end of it around the timing sproket on the camshaft (as the timing belt would be). See how far it wraps around, almost 90* around the sproket from being parallel with the centerline of the cam and crank. Now shave the head 0.055" and drop it back on. Now remeasure the centerline of the cam and crank. You now have a distance of 23.945". Repeat the above. Now you will see that the string wraps alittle farther around the camshaft sprocket than it did before the head was shaved. Not much granted, but enough to screw up the mechanical timing, which is much more important when building an interference engien than with a stock KLDE/ZE. And as disscussed in a previous thread of mine, if the centerline aftershaving the heads were 1/2 a tooth off, then it would either be 3.5* retarded or it would be 7* retarded, which is way to much.


                              EDIT::::::
                              Also, in regards to the oil passages. A larger passage will flow more volume, but have a lower pressure. THis is ultimatly what we want, but there is a barier here. To large of a port and the pressure will be to low, to small and the volume will be to low. Think of this. Take a fire hose and a garden hose. Now force the same amount of water through each taking the same amount of time. The garden hose will have a higher pressure, and a low volume. The fire hose will have a low pressure, but have a high volume. Also, if you were to force the water through both of these, which do you think could use more water sooner???

                              ~Aaron
                              ~Aaron~
                              1993 Silver PGT MTX ~~R.I.P~5/7/14

                              Comment


                              • #30



                                So it has more to do with ensuring that the cam and crank sprockets are on the *correct* teeth. Shaving the heads puts more slack... need less belt length...


                                Score.


                                Thanks!
                                Greg Martin
                                2009 BMW 328i
                                2017 BMW X3
                                1990 Probe LX

                                Comment

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