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2nd Gen (93-97) V6 2.5L Archive Quality Archived Posts and FAQs

 
 
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Old August 24th, 2004, 09:48 PM   #101
probesRus
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OK I was a little confused on the subject myself cuz I misunderstood joe on the +12 dizzy feed and all. I have a 95 Gt so I pulled some diagrams off of ALLDATA at school. I'm on a friend's computer so I'll try make these as clear as possible

This is for a 1995 Probe GT

Six-pin
(1)BK/R = Ground
(2)R/BK = PCM power relay input
(3) --NOT USED--
(4)BL/PK = Ground Signal(Cylinder Identification)
(5)BK/R = Ground
(6)BL/O = Distributor Ignition Input

Three-pin
(1)BK/P = Power(hot in start or run)
(2)Y/GN = Tachometer Signal(Ignition Ground)
(3)Y/BL = Tachometer output

To Clarify this statement: #1 on either harness is The side of the harness closest to the radiator looking into the harness staring towards the passenger side of the car. #6(six pin) and #3(3 pin) are the opposites ends of their respective harnesses closest to the firewall.

I apologize for the ugliness maybe someone could create a diagram with this info.

Since there isn't a ground strap for the ICM(Ignitor) on 95+ maybe by snipping the BK/R ground wire(very first wire nearest to radiator on six pin) you would kill the voltage to the ICM probably BUT the wire next to it which is 5 volt reference from the PCM would still be needed. #4 on six pin is CMP output so don't screw with it. #5 is another ground and then #6 is the Disty input which is the one you want anyways. Hope this clarifies things.
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Old August 29th, 2004, 02:23 PM   #102
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Well I got it figured out. I think. I don't even know if the HEI unit is firing, I can only guess it is since I cut a wire off the connector, and the ONLY wire on a '95 that you cut is the blue/orange wire on the 6 pin connector which, on that connector, is the wire closest to the firewall. You solder on a wire to the end of it coming from the ECU (leave a stub on the connector-side of the wire alone) and run that down to the "G" pole on the HEI unit.

Also, you don't have to get rid of any ground strap. I took apart my disty totally, it's COMPLETELY different than a '93 or '94 distributor, and I think I saw what would be a connector for the ground strap, but it looks as though it goes up to the wire that you cut for a '95+.

And on the 3-pin connector, it's the same as a '93/'94. Tap into the Yellow/green wire and that goes to "C" on the HEI, then tap into the black/pink wire which goes to "B." That's it.

I'm going to drive it home, see if there's any difference, and post the pictures showing more detail of what I did. Plus, I'll feel the HEI to see if it's warm at all.
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Old September 14th, 2004, 05:57 AM   #103
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guys i found in europe a company that makes clone ignition module.
I also found a copy of the delco d1906 what we can use.

This is the link http://www.hueco.de/assets/PDF/MM_Katalog04.pdf

go to page 40 and look for the delco partnumber d1906.
The manufacturer number is 138021.

but my question is what connections are the same on the copy as on this drawing http://home.comcast.net/~mmunoz70/z/...t-HEI-Coil.gif

As you can see going from the left up to right under the connection codes are different.
on the drawing is

W ground C
G B

and the connection codes of the manufacturer is

G- Kl31/ground Kl1
G+ Kl15


So are these connections the same or not ????

If it is i can order this part.
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Old September 14th, 2004, 06:59 AM   #104
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Can't say for sure, but I'll bet its a one of one swap:
W=G-
G=G+
C=Kl1
B=Kl15
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Old September 17th, 2004, 09:08 AM   #105
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I went though 3 of the modules at Auto zone before one worked right. Yours could be bad take it out and have them test it, they do it for free! And if its bad its most likely under warrenty or $14
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Old October 6th, 2004, 08:56 AM   #106
Jim48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bialy
This mod will save lots of people lots of money. It is also a good basis for real ignition upgrades.

After 173,000 miles, my ignitor finally bit the dust. Not wanting to spend $224 for another one, or an equal amount for a feeble MSD, I wired in a $20 (Wells #DR-100) generic GM 4-pin HEI module instead.

In a nutshell:

The ECU's trigger output wire (BL/O) feeds the HEI's pin 'G'.
Ground the HEI's pin 'W'.
Ground the HEI's base.
HEI's pin 'B' taps into the +12V dizzy feed wire (BK/P).
HEI's pin 'C' taps into the coil's primary wire (Y/G).
Remove the internal strap connecting the old ignitor to the coil plug center terminal.

I mounted the HEI module on a bracket next to the LH headlamp.

If $20 is too steep, head to the wreckers and get a used module for a buck or two. Almost every GM car from the mid 70's to the mid 80's has one.

If you don't want the stock coil, it would be just as simple to use an external coil if you add the extra terminal to the cap for it. Lotsa places have hi-perf. HEI modules and HEI specific hi-perf. coils too.

I have this mod mostly installed but I found a website that makes it look like the voltage the HEI was designed for may be less than the voltage the probe disty puts out (http://jaguar.professional.org/ignition/).

I am concerned about hooking pin G of the HEI module up to my Disty Ignition Input because the voltage requirement for the HEI may be different from the disty. I have two questions and would really appreciate an answer from anyone who has measured this voltage or has printed material/website that provides answers.

How much voltage does the reluctor in the original GM disty apply to pin G of the HEI module? In other words, what voltage was pin G of the HEI designed to take?
Has anyone put a resistor in series with the Disty Ignition Input to step the 12v, found in a Probe, down to the voltage the HEI was designed for (if it's lower)?
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Old October 7th, 2004, 06:42 AM   #107
Joe Bialy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim48
I have this mod mostly installed but I found a website that makes it look like the voltage the HEI was designed for may be less than the voltage the probe disty puts out (http://jaguar.professional.org/ignition/).

I am concerned about hooking pin G of the HEI module up to my Disty Ignition Input because the voltage requirement for the HEI may be different from the disty. I have two questions and would really appreciate an answer from anyone who has measured this voltage or has printed material/website that provides answers.

How much voltage does the reluctor in the original GM disty apply to pin G of the HEI module? In other words, what voltage was pin G of the HEI designed to take?
Has anyone put a resistor in series with the Disty Ignition Input to step the 12v, found in a Probe, down to the voltage the HEI was designed for (if it's lower)?
The reluctor in a GM disty is speed sensitive. At cranking speed, it'll put out a very very low voltage, maybe a tenth of a volt or so. At 6,000 rpm, it could put out as much as 30 or 40 volts. The HEI module accepts all of that painlessly and plucks out the negative going zero crossing to fire from.

The nice uniform 5 volt pulses from the Probe's ECU is a walk in the park for it.
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Old October 7th, 2004, 03:01 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bialy
The reluctor in a GM disty is speed sensitive. At cranking speed, it'll put out a very very low voltage, maybe a tenth of a volt or so. At 6,000 rpm, it could put out as much as 30 or 40 volts. The HEI module accepts all of that painlessly and plucks out the negative going zero crossing to fire from.

The nice uniform 5 volt pulses from the Probe's ECU is a walk in the park for it.

Joe i really would like your advice on the IGBT`s
i`m considering using.. ive found a couple of suppliers that do 5V gate IGBTs in either TO220 or 247 case styles.. it would be good to be able to replace the stock item and retain the ignitor dont you think?

look here:
http://www.incony.org/KLZEWiki/pwp_1...Page&iPage=HEI

Last edited by Bluexcell; October 7th, 2004 at 03:02 PM.
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Old October 8th, 2004, 09:31 AM   #109
Joe Bialy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluexcell
Joe i really would like your advice on the IGBT`s
i`m considering using.. ive found a couple of suppliers that do 5V gate IGBTs in either TO220 or 247 case styles.. it would be good to be able to replace the stock item and retain the ignitor dont you think?

look here:
http://www.incony.org/KLZEWiki/pwp_1...Page&iPage=HEI
Sure, an IGBT is at the heart of most ignitions. Look at the STI #VB921ZVFI. It appears to be the whole thing, more or less. for the masses though, it'll be hard to beat the simplicity of that ubiquitous HEI.

In that February snow storm, I didn't have much time to fool around with this and I didn't have a stockpile of transistors to experiment with. I knew the HEI could drive that coil reliably and went with it. In the workshop, with more time and more flexibilty to experiment I would have just replaced that output driver because they're only $2.00, not $20.00!

I also thought about building the complete HEI. The MC3444 chip is the logic behind it and the circuit is readily available. This way I could have tailored the coil current and dwell to perfection, but it doesn't really matter all that much.

How are you going to dissect that old module to add the new driver?
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Old October 8th, 2004, 10:56 AM   #110
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I have 5 of the Fairchild IGBT`s coming FOC as samples in a TO220 case style.. The existing device appears to be micro spot welded which i cant repeat, i took off the heat sink to have a look.. and there isnt much thermal contact paste under the device, i know it doesnt need much but it sure looks miserly.
I`m just going to cut the pins close to the device, and solder the new one in. its ok from a thermal point of view, the device will never get hot enough to melt solder.. hell thats 300 degrees.. there is a vibration question though, but with the device securely clamped, and the pins immovable i think it will work just fine.. when ive got the new device my plan is to set up a simple freq generator to feed it like an NE555 and a scrapyard HT coil and run one for a day flat out into a plug... if that works ok.. then i will have confidence in it.. i could always put a a 250ma fuse in line with the ECU trigger circuit and a 6V Zener to protect the ECU in case of catastrophic failure, but i think thats overkill.
looking at the device you suggest its only rated at 7.0 Amps..and 340V, the fairchild device is 20A at 400V.. better head room.
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Old October 8th, 2004, 04:36 PM   #111
Joe Bialy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluexcell
I have 5 of the Fairchild IGBT`s coming FOC as samples in a TO220 case style.. The existing device appears to be micro spot welded which i cant repeat, i took off the heat sink to have a look.. and there isnt much thermal contact paste under the device, i know it doesnt need much but it sure looks miserly.
I`m just going to cut the pins close to the device, and solder the new one in. its ok from a thermal point of view, the device will never get hot enough to melt solder.. hell thats 300 degrees.. there is a vibration question though, but with the device securely clamped, and the pins immovable i think it will work just fine.. when ive got the new device my plan is to set up a simple freq generator to feed it like an NE555 and a scrapyard HT coil and run one for a day flat out into a plug... if that works ok.. then i will have confidence in it.. i could always put a a 250ma fuse in line with the ECU trigger circuit and a 6V Zener to protect the ECU in case of catastrophic failure, but i think thats overkill.
looking at the device you suggest its only rated at 7.0 Amps..and 340V, the fairchild device is 20A at 400V.. better head room.
I would not feed the ECU directly into that coil driver transistor. One catasptophic failure of that driver could take out the zener and the ECU long before any protective fuse would ever know what hit it. Fuses are way too slow and would only blow long after the delicate components around it are already dead. A sacrificial $0.10 interface transistor, like the original ingnitor has could save an expensive ECU.
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Old October 8th, 2004, 04:41 PM   #112
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Joe.. the circuit diagram shows that IGBT being driven directly from the ECU logic signal, and the fairchild, SGS and International Rectifier parts are all designed to run that way.. ive looked at the application notes.there isnt any other IC or circuit needed to drive the IGBT. if you using a power mosfet.. yes i can see that.. but the info on the IGBT`s shows they are clamped.. i think if i was that paranoid i would use a high speed opto anyway..

Quote from the fairchild data sheet:
General Description
The ISL9V5036S3S, ISL9V5036P3, and ISL9V5036S3 are the next
generation IGBTs that offer outstanding SCIS capability in the D² -
Pak (TO-263) and TO-220 plastic package. These devices are
intended for use in automotive ignition circuits, specifically as coil
drivers. Internal diodes provide voltage clamping without the need
for external components
.

Features
• Industry Standard D-Pak package
• SCIS Energy = 500mJ at TJ = 25oC
• Logic Level Gate Drive

BVCER Collector to Emitter Breakdown Voltage (IC = 1 mA) 390 V
BVECS Emitter to Collector Voltage - Reverse Battery Condition (IC = 10 mA) 24 V
ESCIS25 At Starting TJ = 25°C, ISCIS = 38.5A, L = 670 µHy 500 mJ
ESCIS150 At Starting TJ = 150°C, ISCIS = 30A, L = 670 µHy 300 mJ
IC25 Collector Current Continuous, At TC = 25°C, See Fig 9 46 A
IC110 Collector Current Continuous, At TC = 110°C, See Fig 9 31 A
VGEM Gate to Emitter Voltage Continuous ±10 V
PD Power Dissipation Total TC = 25°C 250 W
Power Dissipation Derating TC > 25°C 1.67 W/°C
TJ Operating Junction Temperature Range -40 to 175 °C
TSTG Storage Junction Temperature Range -40 to 175 °C
TL Max Lead Temp for Soldering (Leads at 1.6mm from Case for 10s) 300 °C
Tpkg Max Lead Temp for Soldering (Package Body for 10s) 260 °C
ESD Electrostatic Discharge Voltage at 100pF, 1500Ω 4 kV
ISL9V5036S3S / ISL9V5036P3 / ISL9V5036S3
EcoSPARKTM 500mJ, 360V, N-Channel Ignition IGBT
General Description
The ISL9V5036S3S, ISL9V5036P3, and ISL9V5036S3 are the next
generation IGBTs that offer outstanding SCIS capability in the D² -
Pak (TO-263) and TO-220 plastic package. These devices are
intended for use in automotive ignition circuits, specifically as coil
drivers. Internal diodes provide voltage clamping without the need
for external components.

EcoSPARK™ devices can be custom made to specific clamp
voltages. Contact your nearest Fairchild sales office for more
information.
Formerly Developmental Type 49443
Applications
• Automotive Ignition Coil Driver Circuits
• Coil- On Plug Applications
Features
• Industry Standard D-Pak package
• SCIS Energy = 500mJ at TJ = 25oC
• Logic Level Gate Drive

From On Semiconductor:

Features
• Ideal for Coil−on−Plug and Driver−on−Coil Applications
Gate−Emitter ESD Protection
• Temperature Compensated Gate−Collector Voltage Clamp Limits
Stress Applied to Load
Integrated ESD Diode Protection
Low Threshold Voltage for Interfacing Power Loads to Logic or
Microprocessor Devices

• Low Saturation Voltage
• High Pulsed Current Capability
• Optional Gate Resistor (RG) and Gate−Emitter Resistor (RGE)
Applications
• Ignition Systems
Ignition IGBT
20 A, 350 V, N−Channel D2PAK
VCE(on) = 1.3 V @
IC = 10 A, VGE  4.5 V
This Logic Level Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor (IGBT) features
monolithic circuitry integrating ESD and Over−Voltage clamped
protection for use in inductive coil drivers applications. Primary uses
include Ignition, Direct Fuel Injection, or wherever high voltage and
high current switching is required.


i`m happy with that..

Last edited by Bluexcell; October 8th, 2004 at 05:02 PM.
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Old October 8th, 2004, 06:35 PM   #113
Joe Bialy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluexcell
i think if i was that paranoid i would use a high speed opto anyway..

i`m happy with that..
It s not paranoia, its looking at every common failure mode and protecting against it. A cheap emitter follower ahead of that IGBT could save the ECU IF the ESD protection craps out. One spark from an open secondary ignition coil could do that. If the ESD doesn't crap out you'll be fine. If it does fail, you could end up scrambling for ECU parts from the roadside in a dead car.

My approach would be to relocate the unit away from the distributor and pretty much build it like the original ignitor except use one of those freebie IGBT's. You eliminate the heat soak issue, the ECU will never know its driving something different, and if it does die, you won't take anything else out with it. But, if you're happy doing it bare bones, go for it! On paper its fine.
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Old October 11th, 2004, 08:27 PM   #114
Jim48
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I used the internal resistor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bialy
You only need an external resistor if you use an external coil.
I have a '95 model GT. I installed your igniter mod using a DR-400 from a 1980 Caprice and an old fashioned, oil filled, cylindrical, external coil from an early '80's Chevy pickup. I just got it running this evening and it works great. I don't think the integral coil in the original distributor was hot enough because, with this external coil, the engine runs much smoother. We took it out and drove it at 5,000 RPM and it performed great.

I did one thing different than your 2/17/04 sketch. I used the internal 1K ohm resistor in the disty instead of adding a new one. The advantage is a cleaner installation with no resistor soldered into the tack wire. Here is the way I hooked it up:
Instead of cutting all three wires to the C-170 connector on the disty, I left the 731 wire on pin 3 (Tachometer Output) connected to the harness. I then connected pin 2 of the C-170 connector to pin C on the HEI module. This effectively puts the disty internal resistor in series with the tach output. In order to make this work there is one more thing you have to do - You have to cut the ICM ground wire on pin 5 of the C-134 disty connector. If you don't cut this ground wire pin C on the HEI remains grounded all the time and there is no spark.
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Old December 20th, 2004, 07:04 AM   #115
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I had the same problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAD MARK
I did all the wiring and check everything over a bunch of times and still can not get any spark. I bought the GP EL102 cause thats what Adavance had.

Ive even opened up the cap and redid everything in there a couple of times to no effect. The engine will turn but no spark is coming from the wires. What should I be checking?
When I first tried this I didn't cut the strap out of the disty, I yanked it out. I didn't realize I still needed the center connection without the strap. I had to solder the connector back on and it started right up. Below is a link to an image with some additional info. I hope this helps.

Strap Image

Last edited by rwilliamson; December 20th, 2004 at 07:08 AM.
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Old January 17th, 2005, 07:06 AM   #116
bhodgins
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Question Niehoff DR400 and stock coil?

Will this work with the stock coil? Or will the HEI kill the coil? I attempted this a month ago on my sister's '95 and it ran for one day with the new HEI in it. Then she took it into her mechanic, and they told her the spark was too weak, so she had a rebuilt disty put in. I tested her coil, and the resistance was perfect according to the service manual.

Now my ignitor is gone on my 93. I would like to be able to do the coil later in the spring, when I can order the modified cap.

I am wondering after reading this note from Joe earlier in this thread:

"You are limited by both the coil and the module. Coil efficiency is always high for any modern coil, but its inductance is what will hurt you."

Am I going to run into this problem as well? Can the stock coil live with the DR400?
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Old January 17th, 2005, 01:25 PM   #117
Joe Bialy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhodgins
Will this work with the stock coil? Or will the HEI kill the coil? I attempted this a month ago on my sister's '95 and it ran for one day with the new HEI in it. Then she took it into her mechanic, and they told her the spark was too weak, so she had a rebuilt disty put in. I tested her coil, and the resistance was perfect according to the service manual.

Now my ignitor is gone on my 93. I would like to be able to do the coil later in the spring, when I can order the modified cap.

I am wondering after reading this note from Joe earlier in this thread:

"You are limited by both the coil and the module. Coil efficiency is always high for any modern coil, but its inductance is what will hurt you."

Am I going to run into this problem as well? Can the stock coil live with the DR400?
Inductance relates to how quickly the coil can accept charging current. Fast charging provides better spark at high RPM's. High inductance means that it will take longer for the coil to charge limiting its performance at high RPM.
So low inductance is better. Inductance is roughly proportional to resistance, so we want a low ohms coil. HEI is meant for a 0.4 ohm coil, the Probe's is 1.0 ohms. Not the best performing coil for higher RPM's, but it works.

Spark energy is related to how much current the coil can accept. The HEI module has an internal current limiting feature built into it. The stock modules limit coil current to around 4 amps or so, aftermarket jobbies maybe limit at 7 or 8 or even more amps. Higher current = fatter spark, so for highest performance we'd want maximum current.

With the current limiting in a stock module, the coil is protected from burning up because you can't pump more than 4 amps through it. AFAIK, the stock Probe ignitor does not have that feature.

If you buy a modified cap you'll want to buy a hot HEI module and its matching HEI coil. You'll get far more spark than any V-6 can handle.

Measuring a coil's resistance doesn't tell how well it is working. Just one shorted turn in that coil will severely hurt it and is undetectable with an ohmmeter. Its the difference between 1.000 and 1.01 ohms.
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Old January 18th, 2005, 08:44 PM   #118
bhodgins
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am I missing something????

Joe,

When I hooked the DR400 into my distributor this evening, I got no spark at all. I had a probe hooked up to the battery positive, and the -IG on the diag connector. It was on steady, then flickered when I cranked it over. I had remembered to clip the strap going to the old ignitor.

Then I took a working distributor out of a working '93 MX-6, and put the clipped band in this one. The car fired up, although one of the guys pulled a wire and said the spark looked weak.

If the band inside the distributor is clipped, there is no way it was using the internal ignitor is there? I am trying to narrow down what is the problem. If that is the case then it all seems to point to the cap, rotor, or coil.

This all started when I had my fuel pump changed, before the pump went the car ran fine. The old pump was a crappy Canadian Tire no-name brand with a low LPH output. The new one is a Walbro 190. Could it be that I had a weak coil all along, and now the higher fuel pressure proved to be too much for it?

Any help is appreciated. It is nasty cold up here....

Cheers,

Brad
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Old January 19th, 2005, 06:17 AM   #119
Joe Bialy
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The HEI is trying to work if the probe flickered when you cranked. If the coil/rotor/cap is bad you wouldn't get a spark though.

There is no relationship between coils and fuel pumps at all.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 12:47 PM   #120
Joe Bialy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDestineCurse
How important is it to bolt the hei down to metal . . . I had a solid ground but nothing to bold it with. The result of course was no spark. and my gasket for my distributor cap flaked apart when I took it apart, could that posibly interfear with this from working? I think that It probly wouldnt... and another thing is will the car start without the mass airflow pluged in, I had to remove alot of the air intake to make things easyer....
If it is correctly grounded (W pin as well as module ground) and it doesn't get too warm it won't need to be mounted to metal. Mine never got very warm ever at all, it would have worked fine just hanging by the wires.

The most important part is the two ground terminations- W and module.
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Old February 8th, 2005, 10:44 PM   #121
Joe Bialy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmganga
Hey guys has anybody had the problem of their HEI module going bad???

Exactly 1 year ago my faithful MSD external ignition box decided to quit after 3 years of service, so I used the HEI module which I put together with great success until recently...

Now the car sometimes idles slightly rough, well not a lot, but it's concerning me...basically it will idle at 700 RPM after being warmed up and/or driving a bit but it struggles and slightly misfires at stop signs and so on...I'm worried that it will leave me in the middle of the street!!!

Anybody who had this experience? Do these HEIs go bad and what are the symptoms?

THANKS!!!
Heat is the #1 killer.
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Old February 27th, 2005, 09:53 AM   #122
greyg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bialy
Sure, an IGBT is at the heart of most ignitions. Look at the STI #VB921ZVFI.
Look BU941ZP transistor - working 2 years
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Old April 1st, 2005, 10:46 PM   #123
snailman153624
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I just wanted to add a link to a modified version of this mod. I changed it around so that you don't have to cut the factory wiring harness!

http://www.mazda626.net/index.php?ac...=0#entry143397
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Old April 13th, 2005, 08:52 PM   #124
Courtice6er
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Well I just did this cuz my car crapped out on me. I dont know if this has been mentioned before. But I used the old mount for my stock air box as a mounting point. It holds very secure and grounds perfectly.
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Old April 26th, 2005, 05:55 AM   #125
gcloer
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Talking Got it working!!!

I finally got this mod working on a 2.0L 93 Mazda 626 (should apply to you Probe guys too). I ended up having to use a simple 12v 30amp relay to supply power to the HEI and coil. No more hot HEI. I've been driving it for three weeks now with no stalling or sputtering. I'll try to post a scematic later for adding the relay to this mod. I had a hunch that the stock wiring was too small of a guage of wire to pull the kind of current the HEI needed to operate properly. Like I said it works beautifully now. THANKS for everyone's help.
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