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Old August 10th, 2017, 08:20 PM   #1
BLUEnoEQ
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Talking How much would it cost

To make a KL V10 or V12?
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Old August 10th, 2017, 08:59 PM   #2
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To make a KL V10 or V12?
well the lotto is at 386 million when you hit it come back and I'll let you know


but in the mean time here's a link for you

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...orris-engines/
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Old August 10th, 2017, 10:04 PM   #3
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Nice! I did not know that was 2 Gm v8s. I did look up a 350 based 12 cyl before this. I can't wait til 3d printing can get to this level.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 07:11 AM   #4
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Actually -it would not be too difficult. You don't have to join them by welding or whatnot. All you would have to do is to fabricate an adapter hub that bolts to the back end of the crank and has a keyed hole in it that the crank nose slides into. Then it is just a matter of making adjustable brackets that secure them in-line and allow laser alignment tweaks. The hub would also need to function like a standard electric motor coupling (with some sort of built-in cushion).

I had thought about it in the past -but I already have too many projects on my plate.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 10:59 AM   #5
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not trying to be negative about it but I dont think it would be worth the time or money and heres why

kl v6 motor 164hp -

kl v10 motor 273hp - you could get here with NOS or a higher compression

kl v12 motor 328hp - you could get here with turbo

kl doesnt make enough power to be a v6 engine

this the reason we got bent over and accepted the Probe lol (joke)

at its power level compared to other v6' our motor should have been a 2 cyl engine lol

yeah I know I skipped over 4cyl.

most 4 banger hondas make more power than we do

and most v6's are double what we make


next reason unless you converting to rwd v10 nor v12 would fit in fwd configuration


Last edited by P1P; August 11th, 2017 at 11:00 AM.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 11:47 AM   #6
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It's not worth the time/money... but we're discussing it anyway. If I was going to go that far I wouldn't be using DE parts I would use ZE parts. I want to know if a KL V10 would/could sound as good as a Carrera GT or LFA. Probably would need a Titanium exhaust on it as well. 4.0l or so V10, 358hp-ish NA. V10 would probably need a balance shaft or something or some excellent split pin crank design. Turbo charged it could still sound good. It would have to be changed to longitudinal, intake enlarged, and lengthened to add runners. Probably need a timing chain conversion or wider belt and pulleys. It would be a lot of work no doubt.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 01:30 PM   #7
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It's not worth the time/money... but we're discussing it anyway. If I was going to go that far I wouldn't be using DE parts I would use ZE parts. I want to know if a KL V10 would/could sound as good as a Carrera GT or LFA. Probably would need a Titanium exhaust on it as well. 4.0l or so V10, 358hp-ish NA. V10 would probably need a balance shaft or something or some excellent split pin crank design. Turbo charged it could still sound good. It would have to be changed to longitudinal, intake enlarged, and lengthened to add runners. Probably need a timing chain conversion or wider belt and pulleys. It would be a lot of work no doubt.

to get the sound you are looking for you might be interested in a flat plane crank design rather than a cross plane crank

flat plane design is the reason Ferrari's sound so good



but if you really want to try something it might be more simple to take (2) I4's and make them in a V8 then use 180 degree headers and still get the sound and power you looking for
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Old August 11th, 2017, 01:37 PM   #8
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the more I think about it the (2) I4 to a v8 I don't think would work unless you totally redesigned a new block and crank

but take 2 I-4's and make you a inline 8 would probably be better

Inline motors tend to have less vibration and less stress than v shapes engines
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Old August 11th, 2017, 06:32 PM   #9
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We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. We forge our tradition in the spirit of our ancestors. You have our gratitude.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 08:13 AM   #10
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We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. We forge our tradition in the spirit of our ancestors. You have our gratitude.
Who said dat? ^^^

I think that what they said in the V16 Devil article -is exactly true in all senses. You cannot just copy/paste two engines together easily. They ended up making an all new CNC billet block and crank. That is what it would take in nearly all cases like this.

That is why I suggested mating two together at the crank. But one thing is certain -the length would be astronomical and fitting into a smaller car isn't economical -when you can fit a smaller turbocharged engine into a smaller car.

But one option is somewhat viable that I have mentioned before in the past. It would be a purely -"do it" thing just to have a one-of-a-kind Probe with a fairly decent amount of power. If you could fit an identical KL motor/driveline into the back trunk area and somehow sync both engines with some very high tech electronics -you would not only have the potential of having two 400 hp turbocharged 2.5L engines (pseudo V12) -but also heavy duty all-wheel drive. Most all-wheel drive cars have some weak links (90 deg tail shaft rear transfer and small rear diff). Most of the rear diffs in AWD have micro-miniature ring-n-pinion gears in them and the tail transfer that bolts to the transaxle is also not extremely beefy. Not too many of them would stand up to 400 hp and the associated torque.

However, our glass tranny -when doubled up -would split the load they would have to apply the torque to and it would be somewhat like two Probes weighing in at less that 1500 lbs each. A lighter car puts less stress on a given transmission than would be a heavier car.

And then there is even yet another option. If you want V12 power -BMW made one that can be purchased rather cheaply wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M70. And Lexus has a V12 that also can be purchased somewhat cheaply (compared to other V12 powerplants). wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GZ_engine However, building them might not be so cheap!
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Last edited by KLZE Porsche; August 12th, 2017 at 08:31 AM.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 09:14 AM   #11
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Who said dat? ^^^



But one option is somewhat viable that I have mentioned before in the past. It would be a purely -"do it" thing just to have a one-of-a-kind Probe with a fairly decent amount of power. If you could fit an identical KL motor/driveline into the back trunk area and somehow sync both engines with some very high tech electronics -you would not only have the potential of having two 400 hp turbocharged 2.5L engines (pseudo V12) -but also heavy duty all-wheel drive. Most all-wheel drive cars have some weak links (90 deg tail shaft rear transfer and small rear diff). Most of the rear diffs in AWD have micro-miniature ring-n-pinion gears in them and the tail transfer that bolts to the transaxle is also not extremely beefy. Not too many of them would stand up to 400 hp and the associated torque.



back in 1999 to 2000 Thomas at Knight Turbo told me he was experimenting with this same concept. but I think the problem he ran into was the design for the shift linkage with the 2 trannys


also I can't remember what car it was but someone actually did this setup don't quote me but i think it was a dodge neon

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Old August 12th, 2017, 09:25 AM   #12
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here's a v16 for you

https://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.ne...739/embed4.jpg
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Old August 12th, 2017, 12:28 PM   #13
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back in 1999 to 2000 Thomas at Knight Turbo told me he was experimenting with this same concept. but I think the problem he ran into was the design for the shift linkage with the 2 trannys...
I would like to have seen that one completed. If someone were extremely electronics saavy -they might be able to come up with a system that shifted with electronic solenoids where the shifting and the clutching were all controlled by "electronic brains" and had a manual input to it from the other side (clutch and shifter position transmitters)

So you might be able to duplicate a manual feel -but be totally controlled in shifting by electronics. This is how jet fighters handle the "feel" -since all flight controls require non-manual direct inputs due to forces (feedback) induced from higher speed drag on surfaces.

So they have what is called a "feel and trim actuator" It is a manual feeling feedback that is mechanically induced from non-direct linkage to flight control surfaces.

Basically it is like a variable spring attached to the stick to provide the same kind of "feel" that you would get from flying a Cessna that is manually connected from stick to surfaces.

You would have to do something similar to have both tranny's shift at the same time and with a synchronized clutch engagement.

Not by any means a cheap way of doing a V12 -but probably cheaper than doing a CNC billet block and crank.

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 PM ----------

Quote:
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^^^ Now that is freaking awesome!
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Old August 12th, 2017, 07:23 PM   #14
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kl doesnt make enough power to be a v6 engine
That's the quote of the day!
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Old August 12th, 2017, 08:01 PM   #15
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"who said dat" Dr. Klahn from the "Fist full of yen" skit in Kentucky fried movie (now shown in feel around). A completely silly movie. It's from 1977 still funny today.

Yeah I've thought about the twin engine thing and I have a solution for the shifter linkages, custom cable to the front, custom or MR2 cable to the rear transmission connect the 2 by lever to a single lever and then adjust. Some fabrication required. As for the clutches a larger piston at the master that pushes 2x the volume to 2 regular slaves. Tough part would be the 2 exhausts and the rear engine exhaust length?

F-18s have the artificial feel thing on the later fly by wire E and F model. Tomcats had direct linkages running through the plane, but if you didn't have hydraulics you were going down anyway.

One of the ways I thought about hooking up 2 engines was with a regular clutch and flywheel between them. Make a crank pulley adapter that splines into the clutch. No accessories, electric waterpump, and timing belt on the second engine.

The idea wasn't necessarily for a Probe although a 10 cyl rwd Probe... and 358 hp na would be very close to what the twin turbo SHO V6 (ecoboost?) puts out. If it could be made and if there weren't additional losses somewhere in there.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 08:26 PM   #16
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... Tomcats had direct linkages running through the plane, but if you didn't have hydraulics you were going down anyway...
Yes and no! They have push rods (linkages) that run through the backbone -but they hook up to pitch, yaw and roll mixer assemblies that are similar to power steering assist. Like you said -without the hydraulics -the plane would go down. At the end -there is always a large hydraulic cylinder that moves the fight control surfaces. That cylinder is controlled by the assemblies that the control rods hook to.

And then there is a "Feel" unit that provides the stick with the proper feedback to make it feel like the stick is connected directly to the surfaces. Without the hydraulics involved -the forces acting against the surfaces would be so great that the pilot would never be able to move them at speed.

But I still believe this (dual engine) can be accomplished electronically in this situation. And the clutch would be a problem even if you drove them from one master cylinder. You would need a proportioning valve -and how would you control that? Differences in inside linings of the hydraulic lines could vary the dividing of fluid. Small differences in cylinders could also make a difference as well as the lengths of hyd lines. And the pressure "feedback" from the clutch itself depending upon wear may cause differences in the engagement. There are too many variables to not have some sort of smart proportioning system involved.
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Last edited by KLZE Porsche; August 13th, 2017 at 10:14 AM.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 08:41 PM   #17
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True, and don't forget about the eddy current damper in there. You wouldn't need a proportioning adapter for the clutches... necessarily... when plumbing the lines start with 2 lines the same length, coil up or zig zag the one that doesn't need to run as far. If there is a spring pressure difference I guess it could cause one clutch to open first and close second. It would probably work though. Start with 2 brand new identical clutches.

KLZE Porsche... Do you think you could have rigged up some kind of framework to hold an engine and trans in the back of ye olde electric car
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Old August 13th, 2017, 09:51 AM   #18
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...KLZE Porsche... Do you think you could have rigged up some kind of framework to hold an engine and trans in the back of ye olde electric car
Oh -I am sure I could have. However, it is a matter of incentive, spare time and years of life left. I don't have much of any of these! Oh and let's not forget about the $$$.

I have two or three major projects lined up that I would like to finish -and if I start another major project -one of these in the lineup may never be completed. I would still like to do Bonneville. I would still like to do the AWD Probe -and I would like to shove a KL into my Spitfire. I ordered the paint ('15 Mustang Magnetic Metalic) for the spitfire yesterday.

I think I could actually complete the Spitfire in a couple of months because there is not really much to it. The Bonneville project is no real big rush -but I would definitely like to do it before I kick the bucket. And the AWD has all of the parts sitting -I just need to finish up my two current big projects first. Then my time will be free (somewhat).

Time is never really free!!!
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Last edited by KLZE Porsche; August 13th, 2017 at 10:00 AM.
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Old August 17th, 2017, 06:56 PM   #19
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Okay more on the theoretical build here... Cut one cylinder each off of 2 blocks so the 2 5 cyl. blocks left can interlock. Use 2 cyl. heads to hold the 2 blocks together perfectly while the blocks get welded together. Do the same and opposing cyl. with the cradle and then the heads. So that the cradle seam and engine block weld seam are not on the same line and then do the heads the same as the cradle. Then it is just 4 cams, a crank, custom headers and ecu? Provided a 10 cyl KL wouldn't shake itself to pieces.
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