mazdaspeed protege 170hp got a question

[Macalynus]

what up fellas
im really kind of excited about the new turbo protege coming out.
im kinda low on cash tho and i heard its gonna cost 20K in the latest issue of sport compact car.ok so here goes the stuff, the car is turbo and th hp is 170, isnt the PGT stock 164hp? only 6 hp down from this new car adn i can get a 95 pgt for 4-6K.

i have a pretty beat up probe and i was thinking of buying a new one soon, more than likely a 95 or higher. but then this mazdaspeed comes along and gets me really exicted. ive been looking for a 4door sporty car and what i came up with was either the SE-R sentra, 4door teg, Maxima(too big tho), and now this protege.

so what do u guys think? should i just go all out and finance this mazdaspeed or just get my pgt. i mean the protege is a turbo and only afew more mods will make it faster. I have no idea how much itll cost me to get a pgt to atleast 200hp so im kinda stuck in deciding what to do. if i get a PGT i wanna make it into turbo or suercharged and all that but i dont know which decision i make is end up with me geting more for my $ and more out of whatever car i get. thank you......your opinion matters
catch u later

[ShadowSE]

the protege is a 4cyl...the PGT is a 6...you can't compare the two hp to hp...

turbo the PGT and see what happens...

[KIRKSGT]

It's easier (and cheaper) to start with a factory turbo'd car when making something faster, typically. However, should you go ahead and start modifying your brand new car, be prepared to accept any financial responsibility that your modifications make you liable for should you break something. Things to think about:

• The MSP is brand new. This means there could be bugs.
• Your PGT will not be brand new. This means major components could be worn.
• The MSP has an LSD for the front wheels; your turbo PGT does not.
• Your new car comes with a warranty. This warranty will not cover your modifications to it. The PGT has no warranty.
• Insurance will probably be more on the PGT.
• Maintenance will be higher on the PGT.
• MSP is boosted out of the box. A boost project on a PGT involves considerable time (and downtime), money, and technical knowhow before, during, and after the installation.
• MSP will be a limited car, hard to get a hold of, and subject to dealer gouging.
• Aftermarket support for the MSP will dwarf that of the PGT...guaranteed.

There's lots of other stuff, too. In fact, why not do the best of both worlds? Get yourself a 02 Protege in any guise (sedan or P5), take advantage of the current 0% financing, no pmts til 1/03 promo, and head over to FM for an unbeatable aftermarket turbo? You'll get the car cheaper than the MSP, get 0%, have money to dump on the turbo, and have a tuneable turbo system.

[KIRKSGT]

Originally posted by ShadowSE
the protege is a 4cyl...the PGT is a 6...you can't compare the two hp to hp...

That is one of the most uninformed comments I've read all day.
The number of cylinders has nothing to do with hp comparisons; it's all about power, torque, and where it is in the powerband. It's also dependant (heavily) on weight of the car, yielding the all important "power to weight" ratio. Yes, comparing a boosted 4cyl to a NA V6 is perfectly comparable. I seem to remember a little car called the Lotus Esprit that could obliterate cars with twice as many cylinders as its turbocharged 2.2L 4. There was a slug of a car called the Supra Turbo that could outgun most of the V8s of the day. And, lest we not forget, there was the 3G RX7, which didn't even have cylinders, yet it could dust Mustangs, Camaros, and the like.

[first_car_93GT]

Originally posted by KIRKSGT
[*]Insurance will probably be more on the PGT.

i really think it'll cost more to insure the car that is 8 years younger and is turbocharged out the box

[KIRKSGT]

Originally posted by first_car_93GT


i really think it'll cost more to insure the car that is 8 years younger and is turbocharged out the box

Really? Hmm...interesting, as both my 02 Miata and the 02 P5 I was shopping cost less than my 94PGT. The MPS will fall into the same category (statistically) as the P5; all Proteges do.

[Hans[93GT]]

Originally posted by KIRKSGT
Aftermarket support for the MSP will dwarf that of the PGT...guaranteed.

Not at all. There's only going to be 2000 or 2500 made.
Sure, Mazdaspeed is going to launch a small parts department, but don't count on them adding any power adders. Mostly style stuff. And the aftermarket won't be crazy about only 2000 cars. Plus I doubt the Protege will still exist in a year or two.

Furthermore, the reason they left it with only 170hp is because they never changed the internals. Anyone who tries to get more power is basically taking a BIG financial risk, unless other people have done it before, reliably. And to this date I havne't seen anybody getting a lot of power out of it. For instance, the FM turbo system you pointed to is only 8 psi (same as Mazdaspeed's, I believe). Perhaps they were too scared to push it further. Let's face it, unlike the WRX, the Protege engine was not designed from the beginning to be turbocharged. Thus it has severe limits.

Don't get me wrong, I was seriously considering buying this car, I think it's great they're launching the MS brand........but I think there are too many downfalls. It's a high theft target, a high vandalism target (stereo), torque steer (Car & Driver), stiff ride (Car & Driver). I'd rather wait for a Mazdaspeed that's based on a Miata or the new 6.

[probepimp]

I'm just happy to work for a Mazda dealership. So I get to drive this thing before any of you! So LOL

But if you want one, you better make up your mind like this week. Cause since it's a limited production car, very few dealerships will even get them. Not all Mazda dealers will even get one, you have to be a Mazdaspeed member to even be considered. Then they consider things like amount of sales your dealership has etc. It's kinda like choosing which dealerships across the country will be blessed to sell the Porsche GT2 (which we have one of right now as well ). But even the dealerships that do get them, only get a few. We're only getting 2 of them. One in the orange, and one in the black (the only 2 colors offered). And the orange one is already sold, even though they havn't been delivered yet. So if you want one, better find a dealer that has the right to sell them first, and order one NOW!

[Hans[93GT]]

Try to find out how much they're selling for. No doubt there's some "market adjustment" added in :rolleyes:

[first_car_93GT]

Originally posted by KIRKSGT

Really? Hmm...interesting, as both my 02 Miata and the 02 P5 I was shopping cost less than my 94PGT. The MPS will fall into the same category (statistically) as the P5; all Proteges do.

are the miata and p5 factory turbocharged? that does change things ever so slightly. also taking into account the age difference(if any) between you and the original poster and how hard either of you shops for the best price and any points on license etc.
basically i'm saying ins. is a variable, but i thoght that it might cost more to insure the MSP due to the turbo, my shrug meant i don't know

[MistPGT]

Buying a car before driving it has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. You have no idea if you'll actually like it. A lot of people did that with the PT Cruiser and there were a few sitting in the used car lots within 6 months.

If you want my opinion, save your money. I'm not looking for a car in that category, but I'd rather go with the Focus SVT. Same power, NA, and I think it looks better. The looks department is always debatable, so that's not really a valid point, but it works for me. I'd rather have a car that wasn't orange or black too.

[MistPGT]

Originally posted by first_car_93GT


are the miata and p5 factory turbocharged? that does change things ever so slightly. also taking into account the age difference(if any) between you and the original poster and how hard either of you shops for the best price and any points on license etc.
basically i'm saying ins. is a variable, but i thoght that it might cost more to insure the MSP due to the turbo, the shrug means i don't know

Turbos and special trim levels will always raise the insurance rates. Just having Mazdaspeed on there will increase it some in the same way that SVT does. Turbos generally run more money too I think. It's all in the demographics and statistics.

[KIRKSGT]

Originally posted by Hans[93GT]

Not at all. There's only going to be 2000 or 2500 made.
Sure, Mazdaspeed is going to launch a small parts department, but don't count on them adding any power adders. Mostly style stuff. And the aftermarket won't be crazy about only 2000 cars. Plus I doubt the Protege will still exist in a year or two.
Furthermore, the reason they left it with only 170hp is because they never changed the internals. Anyone who tries to get more power is basically taking a BIG financial risk, unless other people have done it before, reliably...etc etc (I ran out of room)

To clarify:
The Protege is slated to continue well into the future, though it will receive a name change. Check here for details. It has become a huge seller for Mazda, especially the P5, and they will not shoot themselves in the foot with that. The 2005 MY will begin sharing engines with Ford Focus...global platform sharing.

There will actually be 3500. 2000 are coming now, with 250 going to Canada, leaving us with 1750. Then, in the spring, the next wave of cars will be coming. Same numbers, but a new color, Lazer Blue Mica, will be available. This means a total of 3500 cars in the US. There is no word on whether it will return for next MY; my suspicion is that it will. Remember: it's a Protege with a jazzed up engine. All Proteges are hot right now. Just look at the names that are scrambling to support them: Racing Beat, Flyin Miata, etc... these are huge companies that don't just go out on a limb for any niche vehicle. And since the MPS is a Protege, all current upgrades, as well as future, will apply to it. Remember: the aftermarket doesn't just consist of engine components, and there are several other companies than just Mazdaspeed that are fighting for market share here. There is also a lot more to a car than just its engine. The amount of aftermarket for the P5 alone at this point (at least 90% of which also applies to Protege sedans) already equals, if not betters, the aftermarket for the PGT...and the car is still in its infancy. Not to mention that the engine in these things is the same 2.0 FS that's been in the Probe for years (save for some small changes/updates)...

There are several reasons the car is at 170hp. 1: The car has to meet certain emission requirements. This is also why the car is being released in limited batches. If the car were released all at once, it would qualify as a mass produced vehicle, and the emissions requirements would be even tougher, causing even more conservative tuning of the car, further stifling its output. 2: The car must be durable. You will not find a car in this class running at the peak of its potential from the factory. 3: Fuel. The car could be tuned to run better, but that would require a fuel standardization. Since certain higher grades are only available in some parts of the country, and some parts even get oxygenated gas, the factory settings must account for all of this. 4: Longevity. The factory has to make these things last and live up to Mazda's reputation for reliability. This is why the stock boost setting is only 6.9psi. 5: Cost. Price and speed are quite dependant on each other. Mazda had its market target with this car, and it's hitting it square in the bullseye. They could've made the car more powerful, but it would no longer be a cheap hopped up econobox.

You mentioned that FM's car is at 8psi. Note that this is with a much larger turbo than the stock (T3 vs. T25), and that FM states they need to upgrade the fuel pump because the stock one is overtaxed. I wouldn't run a car past its current adequate fueling limit, either; that's just idiotic. It's got nothing to do with engine internals yet. FM also tunes and sets their systems to be on the safe side of reliable; there's much more in them than what FM sets them to. I know this first hand.

As far as getting power out of the car, FM's kit dynod at 167.5hp (at around 5400 RPM) and 191.5tq (at around 3200). That same car, stock, was 96.4 and 108.3, respectively. If 70hp and 83tq at the wheels isn't a big gain, then we're using severely different definitions of the word. Again, this is with an overtaxed fuel pump; wait til they get an adequate one in there. That's as much power and 35+ more ft-lbs at the wheels as the MPS is making at the crank.

Torque steer is inherent in FWD cars. That's just physics. I will say that the P5s I drove did exhibit a good amount of it. I imagine the MPS will have a similar amount. Though it's got more power, it's also got a Tochigi LSD to put the power down. I will not, however, list it as a downfall of the car until I actually drive one. Same for the suspension; it's all relative. One person's "stiff ride" is another person's luxo-cruiser. It all depends on what you're used to.

[KIRKSGT]

Originally posted by MistPGT


Turbos and special trim levels will always raise the insurance rates. Just having Mazdaspeed on there will increase it some in the same way that SVT does. Turbos generally run more money too I think. It's all in the demographics and statistics.

Wrong. With the strong resurgance of turbocharging, insurance companies aren't even batting an eye at them anymore. This is a common misconception. As far as special trim levels goes... My 02 Miata is one of 239 in that color on the planet. It doesn't cost a penny more to insure.
Insurance is all about demographics, which is why things like trim levels and turbos don't matter. It's also why my 02 Miata costs me exactly $166/yr less to insure than my 94 PGT does (same coverage). All you younguns out there buying them, racing, and wadding them up screwed me. Thanks.

[KIRKSGT]

Originally posted by first_car_93GT


are the miata and p5 factory turbocharged? that does change things ever so slightly. also taking into account the age difference(if any) between you and the original poster and how hard either of you shops for the best price and any points on license etc.
basically i'm saying ins. is a variable, but i thoght that it might cost more to insure the MSP due to the turbo, my shrug meant i don't know

Not in the US...yet.
See my previous post about turbocharging and insurance rates. I've just recently shopped cars and insurance, so I'm relatively up to date on the subject.

Age difference is a moot point, because my age and the poster's age have nothing to do with each other. Same with points. If Car A is more expensive for me to insure then Car B when I'm 16, it's still going to be more expensive for me to insure Car A over Car B when I'm 50.