Dyno Run Results Database

[richtq]

1996 Probe Gt.
- 225hp/245tq.
-Garrett T3/T4 Hybrid .50/.48 A/R at 8psi.
-Millenia S injectors, klze intake manifold w/ vris removed.
-Custom exhaust, stock longblock.
-Brembo rotors, 12.7lbs SSR wheels.
---Dyno sheet before millenia S injectors--
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...e/P1030354.jpg

Glad after what i did to the car panned out lol.

[Sti]

[QUOTE=Sti;1924096360]

Date: 10-27-2003
Location: APG Performance, Wood Dale, IL
Elevation: 696 feet (as per www.city-data.com )

-1995 Ford Probe GT MTX 58k miles

Engine: stock '95 PGT KL03 engine/heads/cams, 58k miles, NGK V-power plugs, Magnecor 8.5mm wires, stock ignition, stock FPR

Mods: PRM intake, HotShot TB elbow, KLZE intake manifold (not modified), Outlaw Engineering KL03 phenolic spacers (port matched to the ZE IM on the IM side), 65mm TB, TB phenolic, TB coolant bypass mod, Brospeed Headers, EGR capped, 2.25" test pipe, Borla cat-back, UO UDP, Fidanza FW, mikeseli ZE VRIS ECU

Misc: SBC DXD FF clutch, stock swirlies with Kumho 712 225/50-16, front end alignment seemed a bit off, Mobil 1 Synth engine oil 5w/30, Royal Purple GearMax 75w90 MTX fluid, base timing 6* BTDC

Dyno: DynoJet Dyno 4th gear pull
Temp ~65*F low humidity

Results:
Run #1: whp=160.1 wtq=154.6
Run #2: whp=159.8 wtq=154.5
Run #3: whp=160.5 wtq=154.8

Dyno printout:
http://home.comcast.net/~mmunoz70/z/20031027omaha01.jpg
Y-axis stretched and edited version
http://home.comcast.net/~mmunoz70/z/20031027omaha02.jpg

so all that work and how does this car not pull bigger numbers?

[BlackProbe]

[QUOTE=Sti;1924096360]

so all that work and how does this car not pull bigger numbers?

Base timing is to low.beeds to be 10 or higher!it would of made more power!

[dillinr]

The computer controls timing reguardless of base timing.

Those numbers look good to me. 10whp more than my car with similar mods but for the ZE intake.

[spada]

[QUOTE=Sti;1924096360]

so all that work and how does this car not pull bigger numbers?

do you really want him to answer you after it's been 9 years since that dyno run? And that wasn't really a lot of "work" he had done to his car.

[BlackProbe]

The computer controls timing reguardless of base timing.

Those numbers look good to me. 10whp more than my car with similar mods but for the ZE intake.

I love when people say that!tell you what!go to the track and retard your car to 5degress an look at your time and trap speed!turn your time to 12degress an run your car again!its called base timing !that what your computer use as its base before it start adding timing!honda is the same way!

---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

[QUOTE=spada;1924096434]

do you really want him to answer you after it's been 9 years since that dyno run? And that wasn't really a lot of "work" he had done to his car.

I didn't even look at the date!lol

[dillinr]

Stock computer? Base timing is set with the GND and TEN pins jumpered. Remove the jumper, Monitor base ignition timing with a timing light while adjusting the distributor. It doesnt change. Every KL vehicle I've owned and every Honda I've replaced distributors on is like this.

[SuperSquid]

If you have a stock ECU on a KL engine, it doesn't matter where you put your distributor. The computer is GOING to fire the engine based on the timing map in the ECU. The only difference is, if you are too far off of the base timing position, you may end up firing a different cylinder...especially on the later model year cars that dropped the cam position sensor in the distributor.

[BlackProbe]

My point is that you can still advance and retard your car from the distributor ! Just like Honda and other brand obd1 vehicles ! If anyone live in ATL area, I can proven it to you!me and blackshine 007 have prove it with each other and at the track! 1/4 mile time have increase or decrease doing so, mpg also!

[KLZE Porsche]

If you are able to improve your times at the track by changing your timing on the distributor -then there is something wrong with your car because what they are saying is 100% true. The timing is normally controlled by the ECU based on the inputs from the sensors. When it is not in the maintenance mode -you can turn your ECU all you want and the timing won't change. Put a timing light on it and you will see what they are saying.

I would say that you are stuck in the limp home mode (from a bad sensor input) -except that I believe when it goes into limp home mode -it fixes the timing at 10 deg. (which could be the problem -if that is based on distributor base timing) So perhaps you might be. I dunno -because I am not sure what reference it bases the 10 deg. on.

Or perhaps your car is stuck in the maintenance mode???

The bad thing about being stuck in limp home mode is that -the fuel goes to a default map as well. If that happens -you can be loosing some power due to fuel mix even if the timing is adjustable with distributor position.

[mac1]

I love when people say that!tell you what!go to the track and retard your car to 5degress an look at your time and trap speed!turn your time to 12degress an run your car again!its called base timing !that what your computer use as its base before it start adding timing!honda is the same way

i'm still a firm believer in this. THe ECU has a timing map that's preset, if you advance or retard from 10*btdc while in diagnostic mode then the entire timing map that is stored in the ECU will be advanced or retareded that exact amount.

When you pull the jumper wire out and continue to look at the timing mark, yes it will move because the KL is not designed to idle at 10*btdc, that's just a generic number used for checking and adjusting that works good for the typical combustion motor.

THe ECU cannot see the timing mark and where the disty is positioned in relation to the cam, it rely's on "you" to time it to factory spec. Emissions testing allows +/- 3degrees last time I checked.
------------------
------------------
Proof story #1: way back when I started out with MS on fuel control only and was supercharged, I wanted more power, I heard from a little birdy that you could change timing and gain power, I was too lazy to pull out the timing light so I just moved the disty in unknown direction and went for a drive. It lasted 1 stinking pull before I cracked a piston and almost cracked my head on the steering wheel from the sudden loss of power.

Proof story #2: last week we re-timed "sbpgt" 2nd gen cause last time we advance his disty in a parking lot again with "no" timing light just for 1 race. It has driven pretty strong since, winter fuels kicked in and gas mileage suffered a bit. Now we put it back to normal and he's complaining about low end response the very next day.

---------- Post added at 05:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 AM ----------

The only difference is, if you are too far off of the base timing position, you may end up firing a different cylinder... .

this is true due to the rotor arching to the wrong electrode inside the disty cap.

[BlackProbe]

i'm still a firm believer in this. THe ECU has a timing map that's preset, if you advance or retard from 10*btdc while in diagnostic mode then the entire timing map that is stored in the ECU will be advanced or retareded that exact amount.

When you pull the jumper wire out and continue to look at the timing mark, yes it will move because the KL is not designed to idle at 10*btdc, that's just a generic number used for checking and adjusting that works good for the typical combustion motor.

THe ECU cannot see the timing mark and where the disty is positioned in relation to the cam, it rely's on "you" to time it to factory spec. Emissions testing allows +/- 3degrees last time I checked.
------------------
------------------
Proof story #1: way back when I started out with MS on fuel control only and was supercharged, I wanted more power, I heard from a little birdy that you could change timing and gain power, I was too lazy to pull out the timing light so I just moved the disty in unknown direction and went for a drive. It lasted 1 stinking pull before I cracked a piston and almost cracked my head on the steering wheel from the sudden loss of power.

Proof story #2: last week we re-timed "sbpgt" 2nd gen cause last time we advance his disty in a parking lot again with "no" timing light just for 1 race. It has driven pretty strong since, winter fuels kicked in and gas mileage suffered a bit. Now we put it back to normal and he's complaining about low end response the very next day.

---------- Post added at 05:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 AM ----------



this is true due to the rotor arching to the wrong electrode inside the disty cap.

Am happy to see that am not the only one who knows about this!!Everyone listen to what one person said ,a long time ago an believe them.

[Zepticon]

So, im trying to understand what mac1 says... So here is my reasoning:
The ECU has a timing map, we all know that.
We also know that it has two sensors to determine the position of the pistons, the cam sensor inside the disty, and the crank sensor.

Now lets look at those two sensors:

Crank: this one is fixed. Meaning the ECU will know exactly where it is in relation to the crank. Every top on the wheel, is related to an exact engine position.
Cam: The cam is not fixed, it is adjustable within a few degrees. But the thing about the cam sensor, is that combined with the crank sensor, the ECU can detect where the pistons are.

So what happends when you adjust the disty? You also adjust the cam sensor, and since this does not have a fixed reference point, the adjustment will affect the timing. The sensor inside the disty does not know that it has been turned 2degree clockwise.

Lets introduce some hypotetical numbers, that are totally wrong, but just for illustration:

Since i dont know at what degrees the KL fires, i will just asume that it is one cylinder each 60 degree.
So, the CAM sensor is closing in on 60 degrees. It knows that one piston is getting closer to TDC, but due to the low resolution on the trigger wheel, it cant be sure on when it hits.

The cam sensor is also closing in on 60 degrees. It knows that it is suppose to fire cylinder nr 2 when the cam sensor is at 60 degrees. And it will. But since you have adjusted the cam sensors position, by rotating the disty, what the cam sensor think are 60 degree, is actually 62 degree. So the disty will fire the cylinder when the ECU tells it to, at 60 degree on the sensor, but due to the position of the disty, it is actually 62 degree on the cam.

Thinking the ECU can calibrate the timing even if you adjust the sensor, is like thinking a blind man in a dark room can point at the sun if you just tell him the time, and not what way he is facing.
(That beeing said, the ECU can to some extent use the crank sensor to adjust the map, but not much due to the low resolution on the trigger wheel)

[Zepticon]

If you are able to improve your times at the track by changing your timing on the distributor -then there is something wrong with your car because what they are saying is 100% true. The timing is normally controlled by the ECU based on the inputs from the sensors. When it is not in the maintenance mode -you can turn your ECU all you want and the timing won't change. Put a timing light on it and you will see what they are saying.

But when you are turning the disty, you are changing the position of one of the sensors, resulting in a different parameter, and thus, the ECU is given "wrong" data, and thus "wrong" output.

It is like doing a 100 meter dash. I will be the "sensor" and meassure the running distance. Since i am blind i start to meassure about 20 meters behind the finish line, and meassure 100 meters to amrk where to start running from (this is what happends when i move the disty aswell). Since i started out 20m wrong, the final distance is not 100m but 80m. But i report 100m to the judges since i dont know that i startet my meassurements from the wrong place.

Everyone running will be running "faster", since you changed one parameter that the formula think is fixed. v=100m/t is the formula for speed (v=s/t) from a 100 meter dash, but the jduges dont know that the 100m is wrong, and neither does the ECU in regards to the cam sensor.

In the 100m dash you change s, and in the disty you change the angle.

It does sound logical right?

[BlackProbe]

So, im trying to understand what mac1 says... So here is my reasoning:
The ECU has a timing map, we all know that.
We also know that it has two sensors to determine the position of the pistons, the cam sensor inside the disty, and the crank sensor.

Now lets look at those two sensors:

Crank: this one is fixed. Meaning the ECU will know exactly where it is in relation to the crank. Every top on the wheel, is related to an exact engine position.
Cam: The cam is not fixed, it is adjustable within a few degrees. But the thing about the cam sensor, is that combined with the crank sensor, the ECU can detect where the pistons are.

So what happends when you adjust the disty? You also adjust the cam sensor, and since this does not have a fixed reference point, the adjustment will affect the timing. The sensor inside the disty does not know that it has been turned 2degree clockwise.

Lets introduce some hypotetical numbers, that are totally wrong, but just for illustration:

Since i dont know at what degrees the KL fires, i will just asume that it is one cylinder each 60 degree.
So, the CAM sensor is closing in on 60 degrees. It knows that one piston is getting closer to TDC, but due to the low resolution on the trigger wheel, it cant be sure on when it hits.

The cam sensor is also closing in on 60 degrees. It knows that it is suppose to fire cylinder nr 2 when the cam sensor is at 60 degrees. And it will. But since you have adjusted the cam sensors position, by rotating the disty, what the cam sensor think are 60 degree, is actually 62 degree. So the disty will fire the cylinder when the ECU tells it to, at 60 degree on the sensor, but due to the position of the disty, it is actually 62 degree on the cam.

Thinking the ECU can calibrate the timing even if you adjust the sensor, is like thinking a blind man in a dark room can point at the sun if you just tell him the time, and not what way he is facing.
(That beeing said, the ECU can to some extent use the crank sensor to adjust the map, but not much due to the low resolution on the trigger wheel)

i think We need to move this discussion to a different section!lol

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------

But when you are turning the disty, you are changing the position of one of the sensors, resulting in a different parameter, and thus, the ECU is given "wrong" data, and thus "wrong" output.

It is like doing a 100 meter dash. I will be the "sensor" and meassure the running distance. Since i am blind i start to meassure about 20 meters behind the finish line, and meassure 100 meters to amrk where to start running from (this is what happends when i move the disty aswell). Since i started out 20m wrong, the final distance is not 100m but 80m. But i report 100m to the judges since i dont know that i startet my meassurements from the wrong place.

Everyone running will be running "faster", since you changed one parameter that the formula think is fixed. v=100m/t is the formula for speed (v=s/t) from a 100 meter dash, but the jduges dont know that the 100m is wrong, and neither does the ECU in regards to the cam sensor.

In the 100m dash you change s, and in the disty you change the angle.

It does sound logical right?

yep,you sound on point!!!!