Think this needed it's own thread - READ ME

[c-man]

Yep.

BTW, for the club members concerned with how we interact. Please take the time to spend just $35 to enter the Queen Mary show. For those that have not attended...this isn't some HIN show where all the cars had budgets and sponsors beyond us normal enthusiasts. This show is about bringing the club together and sharing their enthusiasm with the other clubs doing the same thing. The view is spectacular and the judging system in our own Probe class gets three of the probers trophies.

[dmark101]

Yep.

BTW, for the club members concerned with how we interact. Please take the time to spend just $35 to enter the Queen Mary show. For those that have not attended...this isn't some HIN show where all the cars had budgets and sponsors beyond us normal enthusiasts. This show is about bringing the club together and sharing their enthusiasm with the other clubs doing the same thing. The view is spectacular and the judging system in our own Probe class gets three of the probers trophies.

and if we had 10 or more entries, you can count on us having more than 3 trophies awarded.

[euphoriasonic]

Thanks for your post, Damon. I think it definately helps shed some light upon the subject, and will hopefully give some members a better idea of where you are coming from. It helped me, at least. However, seeing as how many people have posted in this thread, versus how many "members" are in the region of this club, i don't see nearly as much response as I was kinda hoping to get.

Meaning, there must be those that prefer to stand on the sidelines, and not mention much. I would think a topic towards the entire club, such as this one... would have more feedback.

Damon, the reasonings behind your actions are not necessarily my business, and nor were they apparent at the time I was present at the few meets I have been able to attend. This is certainly not the single reason why i posted this thread, because it involves several members actions that I have witnessed, wether in meet attendance or on this board.

However, as a senior member, and PT forum owner, I was quite astonished when I noticed how you reacted to some of the events of the meets that I did attend. Understanding that you want to influence current and future members with correct and proper guidance, the outbursts that I noticed weren't going to accomplish that, and if only, disturbed the other members slightly. Again, at least myself.

And that kind of brings us to the subject of Eric, and my reaction to your post in the other thread. Which, yes - did prompt this lengthy topic. Real quick, as far as Eric is concerned: He's a young kid, still a lot to learn. He does have good intentions (for the most part), and holds not only an enthusiastic attitude towards the probe/mazda community, but also offers mechanical help, to those that may need assistance at times.

As a teenager, if your parents were to yell at you... you revolt. And you do exactly what they told you not to do. It's quite typical, and for the most part - we've all been there. In that respect, if you are to ban a member for something that they may feel is not that wrong, and might not understand why you are telling them no, of course a typical action is going to be to revolt.

And that is why I brought up this thread, in meaning that maybe situations need to be dealth with in a.... calmer, more caring fashion? Find that peaceful, cool, Grandfather with-a-lot-of-money type of patience and knowledge - and lets all maybe try to help and advise each other - calmly - in the right directions, instead of directly telling someone - "NO, you can NOT do that" without much of a real explanation. Possibly offer other alternative routes, to their actions.

I don't know, i'm not exactly that old, patient and smart enough myself, yet. Although, I do know that the way i've seen certain things handled around here, is not really the right way.

Again, is that not what a club is for? To help each other, instead of just ban people away? On occassion, sure there are some that just seriously won't get it, and no longer deserve to be considered. However, I doubt, for instance, that Eric is such a horrible, no good individual that his actions can't be calmly directed towards a better alternative.

And as far as other members in the club around here, I would love to hear some feedback and opinion. I still feel that an open discussion, is better than no discussion or a private, one-to-one confrontation to boot. There are many that don't want to deal with certain individuals directly, although should certainly have their opinions and feelings taken into consideration.

Allowing for such a discussion, is a good thing. Thank you to those that choose to participate, and offer better solutions.

[apinn_25]

Well, I guess I have been one of those on the "side lines". I have watched/read this thread since your original post and have typed a reply once but did not submit. Not this time though.

Damon, I agree that your methods of dealing with people seems a bit harsh (paricularly the new members). To a new or potential member your "breaking the ice" is not very positive or effective. I'm not being judgmental. Just an observation. My personal experiences support this. In the beginning you and I butted heads a bit. But I was not detered and now that I have gotten to know you a bit more I respect you and value your friendship. On a smaller scale I can understand your frustrations and aggravation.

I have meet several of you through the past few years here. I have been to a few meets. But not enough to really become involved in the in's and out's of the club. I realize that there are some long standing issues with particular members here. Some I am aware of, most I am not. Individual issues, left un resolved, have the potenial bring down everything else around it. Personally, I have no issues with anyone here. But if I did I would want it resolved as soon as possible and move on.

As far as discussing/attempting to resolve situations/issues over the internet goes, it is simple because you do not have to face the person you are addressing. You are able to speak your mind but not your feelings. You can make your thought known but not your emotions. I agree with Damon that most things are better said in person.

To me the club seems to be in.....in a rut maybe? I guess that is a way to put it. People don't seem to be willing to make an effort unless it is convenient for them. We are not thriving as a club. It's more like some of us are just going through the motions. There is no commitment. I understand everyone has different priorities. Damon, one of your priorities is this site and club. That is completely understandable given the fact that this is your. You own it and you have an invested interest in it. Maybe a step in the right direction is that some of US need to develop a little bit of "this is my club" mentality. I mean, in a way it is all of ours. Without the members there is no club. Just a thought.

Shawn

[mazda_mx6_turbo]

ive been a commited member for quiet a while, i have read this thread since day one, never wanted to put my input, i though damon might have a better way of doing it, after all he is the site owner and SCPOC club president, i had my things with damon a long time ago, but now we are good freinds and so are others in this club, there has been some ups and downs with this club, but the cause isnt just damon, many members or newbs we can say tend to say that, i know damon comes down a bit harsh on newbies sometimes, but its all to get the newbs to start talking and stop feeling like a stranger.

but you guys might want to go back a few years, and see how Gil dealt with newbs, he was way more harsh on newbs than damon ever was, to bad Gil has left the seen. we have had our few member issues were the ones that just dont get it.

im not gonna talk too much in the eric case, but as for eric, he had the atittube since the 1st day he showed up to a meet, and he never changed, and i think damon has warned him a few times, but in the end he didnt listen and told damon he dosent care what he has to say. which led to the banning.

as far as eric beeing a great mechanic for the memebers of the club, i wonder were this would leave the real mechanics in the club at. no more needed to say.

as for attendance, i have been a very active member in the last 5-6 years. just lately, i havent been able to make it to every meet, due to my back injury, in which it prevents me from enjoying some of those mountain runs that we do and the long drives. its either have a fun day in the car for 8 hours and have massive pain in the 2 weeks after, or sacrefice the fun for a day and have an ok pain for the rest of the times. not much i can do about it myself.

ill leave the rest to other members to chip in.

[apinn_25]

I had just moved to SD when Gil resigned. I don't think I have even met him.

I'm not suggesting Damon is even an issue. True, I don't exactly agree with his approach to certain things. Or maybe it is more likely that I don't understand his motives. Regardless, I consider Damon a friend and he has earned my respect.

As for "excuses". There are excuses and then there are legitimate reasons. I think the destinction can be a little relative sometimes. Ones persons reason may be viewed by another as an excuse. Now things like your back. That is a legitmate reason. I mean, your personal health is at risk. I don't think anyone would ever consider that an excuse. If they did they deserve to have the nuts kicked in. But that subject could go on forever. I'm sure we can see the true excuses though. Again, I think a little personal ownership and pride would resolve a lot of these issues.


Typically, I don't get involved in issues that do not directly involve me. But I consider myself a member of this club and this is an open club discussion. So I felt compiled.

Shawn

[dmark101]

To me the club seems to be in.....in a rut maybe? I guess that is a way to put it. People don't seem to be willing to make an effort unless it is convenient for them. We are not thriving as a club. It's more like some of us are just going through the motions. There is no commitment. I understand everyone has different priorities. Damon, one of your priorities is this site and club. That is completely understandable given the fact that this is your. You own it and you have an invested interest in it. Maybe a step in the right direction is that some of US need to develop a little bit of "this is my club" mentality. I mean, in a way it is all of ours. Without the members there is now club. Just a thought.

shawn, this paragraph echoes many of the sentiments that i have been trying to preach from day 1.

yes, people don't seem willing to make the effort, especially when it's not convenient for them and even more so if the meet event is something they don't want to take part in.

i had a conversation with eric yesterday. one of the things we discussed was his recruiting efforts. i've heard him tell me for a long time that he's always letting people know about the club, but for the first time, he told me the reason why they don't show up is they don't like the events planned; even the mountain cruises.

yes, i believe some of the core members are in a rut. i believe that new "members" are intimidated to even show up because they don't want to feel uncomfortable. i understand that, but let's consider this small fact:

at one time, even I was a new member who didn't know anyone. sure, i was a little nervous, but i got over that an introduced myself to people and took an ACTIVE part in becoming a member of the club.

that's all i ask from a prospective member. show up and don't be afraid to be yourself.

as far as meets go, i really wish that people would speak up when it comes time to set up the monthly meets; after all, the meets are presented for the members. that's how we've always done it. sure, an idea might get shot down, but that should never discourage you from suggesting more ideas. who knows? maybe one of them will turn into the best meet the club's ever had! the TOR is a PERFECT example of that.

you see, i didn't come up with the idea of the twist-o-rama. i didn't even come up with the name. do you know where i got it from? i got the idea from longtime SCPOC member lino sacman. he mentioned to me during one of our get-togethers about the idea of having a nice cruise, and that he saw some maps on a miata site that his brother belonged to. i asked him to point me in the direction of it and that got the ball rolling. this year's event is now the fifth or sixth time we've done this cruise as a regular club event!

the idea to attend fabulous fords wasn't mine either. that was suggested by longtime SCPOC member howard chu i believe. only 3 cars attended that first show in 2000: howard chu, lino sacman, and myself. since then, it's only grown. the idea for the angeles crest highway wasn't my idea. i believe it was either SCPOC members stacey bertran or todd veloni's idea. it's now become one of the staple meets for us and it's always a terrific drive. the original mod days [and SCPOC was the FIRST POC to call them that] were held at lino's apartment and all of them involved either my car, his car, or another members car, not to mention me usually having to provide the tools.

even before i became a member, this club was doing dyno days, having drag racing meets, meeting at museums, or just getting together and hanging out. we still hang out now.

so don't be discouraged if an idea is turned down. ideas are what keep the club going and allow for us to try new things. if no one suggested anything, we would never have had the CaPOC meets, or the trips to Medford, or the caravan chavez, trevor and i took to Myrtle Madness, or the Middle America Showdown meets that stacey, pizzi, and i attended.

hell, if anyone became discouraged by a suggestion being turned down and they stopped offering more, we wouldn't even HAVE a ProbeTalk website. for that matter, if i had not taken any initiative whatsoever, we wouldn't have a CLUB website.

i've said this time and time again in the past, but maybe not enough recently: this is NOT my club, it's YOURS. IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN.

YOU just need to take some PRIDE in it and at least put forth just a little bit of effort into what others have done to provide this opportunity for you.



thanks for reminding me why i still do this shawn.

[Rayman]

so don't be discouraged if an idea is turned down. ideas are what keep the club going and allow for us to try new things.

then i suggest u all go to a titty bar and re-bond as a club

[euphoriasonic]

well, from suggessting meet ideas, to suggesting an open discussion to dabble on the topic as to why we are all here, may want to be and/or should be here. as individuals, as a club or as in life.

maybe everything happens for a reason. maybe shit just happens. a friend of a friend, I just had the fortune of meeting not too long ago, passed away in a coma last night. like 27 years old. my two good friends, who were real good friends with him, are tore to hell about it. absolutely no warning. a blood vessel popped in his brain, causing an aneurysm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurysm

you never know when. you might not even know why. It just goes to show, that life is waaaayyyy too short to bitch, bicker, moan and complain, carry hard feelings, or to not enjoy this life, and learn from it. like Nike said, Just Do It. Don't hesitate, what are you waiting for. we all make mistakes, that will never change. we all have different lives, different learning curves, and different thoughts and feelings towards this life. but if there is opportunity to learn and grow, move forward or change for the better...

then by golly, lets live a little.



I for one, am happy to see more people posting in this thread. it seems as if some of the smog floated away from downtown LA tonight, and i can see a few more stars in the sky. i don't mean this thread and club at this very moment, i am talking of our existence in this life, this time, this place...

i just know there is now a photograph in my mind, that i will never, ever forget as long as i live... sorry for side-stepping a moment, however many blessings to those individuals out there that are no longer with us. may you rest in peace, and may someone have learned and lived, or hath always will remember thee...

[Shwaykid]

My condolences to you, and your friends.

I am maybe the newest member? The TOR was my first event and I was met with nothing but welcoming kindness. Granted, I didn't talk to everyone all that much, but I didn't feel any hostility whatsoever from Damon or anyone else. Shawn was the first guy to greet me, and I spent most of the time chilling with Dan and Dimitri. From what I can tell, this group is aimed at fun and good times for everyone.

For any other new members out there, there truly isn't anything to feel apprehensive about. I was welcomed, and I don't even drive a Probe .

Just thought maybe an opinion from the other side of the spectrum might be appreciated. I don't know about any of the past problems or the individuals that were involved, but the group of people I met were first rate.

[desertfox1313]

Well, I have been keeping a tab on this thread (when I have not been in town).
First I have been a member for a long time, there are many who have been scpoc for a long time, but as for people who still post here an come to a meet or two I am up there.
I can admit I am one of the people who does not show too often for meets, in the past I made a lot more, and for my own reasons I dont show up too often. I was around before Gil took over the club. In fact my first meet was a MOD day at his house pretty shortly after I got my car. Most the people I met that day are no longer even part of the club.
Today, I have recently retired the probe (fate unknown) and am driving a new car, but I still wouldnt think of saying I am not a scpoc member.

As for Damon, and I have told him this in person, I rarely disagree with his intent, but his delivery can be harsh, he has personally gone way out of his way to help me before at the drop of a hat before. I personaly have never had any issues with him and trust him as a good friend. That said his harshness i can see being intimidating to new members and irritating to some, but I see his frustration as well so I am pretty well neutral there.

Personally, I have dealt first hand with several poor members, some now gone, and some still at large and unknown in the club. Mod days at my house (which were rarely attended) ended to the general club after missing and damaged tools at my house. Honestly thats been a major reason for me backing away from the club a bit as well. Inviting someone to your home to use your place and tools to do work, then destroying and/or stealing tools is rather sobering to how messed up people are.

As for meets, I agree that a lot of the twisties and such are not for me, and sadly the car shows at this time are also not for me. Oktoberfest currently is the only meet I really plan on showing up to at this time and its mostly due to the selection of the meets. Perhaps (hell I might even do it) starting a thread for general meet ideas open to everyone would be a good idea.

As for attitudes in general i think a lot of people find themselves not being as nice as they should be more often then is good. Sadly its simply up to people to fix it for themselves.

Thats my $3.50
My last .02 is simply that a car club with drama... fails to be the nice break everyone needs. So as long as drama is kept away events and the club are more appealing to everyone.

Trevor

[dmark101]

thanks for bringing up the issue of general meet ideas trevor.

i'm all for having new meets that appeal to everyone. let's also not forget that even though we might have some set club meets, there was a time when we would hang out all the time and make trips here and there that were not part of the regular "meet schedule".

when that stopped happening, along with some other factors, is when things with the club starting going down.

hell, at this point, if it helped, i would step down and let someone else run the club.

[anomaly]

Well, I have been keeping a tab on this thread.

First I have been a member for a long time, there are many who have been scpoc for a long time, but as for people who still post here an come to a meet or two I am up there.

I was around before Gil took over the club.

My first meet was a Fiesta Island BBQ. Most the people I met that day are no longer even part of the club.
Today, I have recently retired the probe (wrecked by dumb bitch in a Benz S500) and am driving a new car, but I still wouldnt think of saying I am not a scpoc member.

As for Damon, and I have told him this in person, I rarely disagree with his intent, but his delivery can be harsh, he has personally gone way out of his way to help me before at the drop of a hat before. I personaly have never had any issues with him and trust him as a good friend. That said his harshness i can see being intimidating to new members and irritating to some, but I see his frustration as well so I am pretty well neutral there.


As for attitudes in general i think a lot of people find themselves not being as nice as they should be more often then is good. Sadly its simply up to people to fix it for themselves.

Thats my $3.50
My last .02 is simply that a car club with drama... fails to be the nice break everyone needs. So as long as drama is kept away events and the club are more appealing to everyone.

+1 Almost identically, too - except for the bolded section.

I respect Damon for what he has done for this club and the "Probe Community." I really don't think that many people really understand how much he has worked for all of us.

Thank you for all your efforts, Damon.

Has that ever really been said to you?

And on top of that, I was SCPOCs VP/Events Coordinator while Gil as prez and then, I guess what would be called, the "acting" club president after Gil left.

Taking care of all the different personality types this club has is very difficult. Planning events for everyone to enjoy is also very difficult and caused me a lot of heart burn/stress. So much so that I decided to step down last year while I was searching for a new job.

That last point is something I don't think the participants of this club realize. I'll state it again in bold:
It is very difficult to plan meets for everyone to enjoy and accomodate all the different personality types.

Additionally, everyone has a different agenda on what they want to do - instead of simply participating and enjoying the experience (whatever the function may be) everyone feels the need to put their two cents in (repeatedly) and complain that the scheduled event isn't what they want to do. Sometimes that reminded me of a child pouting or throwing a tantrum.

At this point, I think this is all I want to say...for now.

[euphoriasonic]

thanks for bringing up the issue of general meet ideas trevor.

i'm all for having new meets that appeal to everyone. let's also not forget that even though we might have some set club meets, there was a time when we would hang out all the time and make trips here and there that were not part of the regular "meet schedule".

when that stopped happening, along with some other factors, is when things with the club starting going down.

hell, at this point, if it helped, i would step down and let someone else run the club.

so, i think this is good... members posting their thoughts about the state of the club, and possibilities to help improve that state. i for one, would love to attend more meets. unfortunately, i just don't see that happening very soon, being the financial and extremely busy schedule i'm currently dealt. new job = 9-7, M-F. gets tiring. in the studio most of the weekend, and rarely have time to catch up on all the other, personal things i'm working on. by no means, however does that mean i do not plan on attending at least a couple/few meets a year. i do see my financial dilemma getting better, so hopefully my attendance record will be improved, greatly.

my probe, for that matter... is literally deteriating every day. i now have cracked/faded pads and rotors, a loose/squealing accessory belt i can't get tightened at the moment (will probably break, or break something else...), a bent fender from the door pushing it in, paint discoloration everywhere, the weather stripping everywhere so dried out it's all falling off...

and to top it off, someone threw a rock at three cars on the street one night, one being mine. my windsheild needs to be replaced. need a new cat and flex pipe, temp sensor/etc, as well as valve cover gaskets replaced, before i could even think of trying to get this car legal in cali...


but anywho, i'm much happier to see members posting in this thread, and letting their thoughts be heard. i would def be pissed if people were invited to my place, and damaged/stole anything from me, too... just not cool at all. i hosted many mod/gatherings at my house in florida, and never really had that issue... i'm sure there's a way we could come up with having a mod day, and it be a pleasant experience for everyone. maybe inventory all tools to be shared, written or typed up in a quick list... all tools accounted for, before anyone leaves to take off... is a possible suggestion. i don't think the one bad apple should spoil the bunch, though.

i would like to be able to not only make friends here, but to know that we all enjoy time well spent with each other, wether it's at a scheduled meet,. or outside of an official club gathering, as Damon mentioned.

wether open discussion such as this thread is hosted here online, in the forum - or it is discussed between members during a meet - i think it definately helps to hear everyones opinions, and to consider all suggestions on the table. for anything. meets, attitudes, club wants and needs, etc.

so hopefully, we can all become better friends and will turn this into a stronger club, for those that choose to belong and to participate.

and Damon, if you've put so much into this club and this forum so far... i would hate to see you give it up. that is certainly your own choice, however as others have mentioned, i don't think any issues on the table here are worth just giving it all up for. i for one, don't have any personal issues with you, either. i just think as a whole, the club should start to turn around, and work towards a more positive, more enjoyable future. the possibilities are, endless...

thanks again for everyone sharing their thoughts. the more we share, the more we can grow, ay?

[dmark101]

I respect Damon for what he has done for this club and the "Probe Community." I really don't think that many people really understand how much he has worked for all of us.

Thank you for all your efforts, Damon.

Has that ever really been said to you?

no, i rarely hear that, if ever. thank you.

all i usually hear is how i'm the cause of all the problems, the drama, the headaches, the heartaches, the bullshit, and being the reason this club is in the state it's in.

i've heard that time and time again from many "members" and would be members. the lack of appreciation and being blamed for this crap by people who don't care about this club but more about their own bullshit [names are withheld because i don't want anyone getting their panties wadded] makes me just want to quit. it's sad and very depressing because no one, aside from those whom i've asked to take leadership positions, truly appreciates what it takes to actually run and promote a club.

there are only a small handful of us who actually know that: me, stacey, todd, pizzi, and gil.

It is very difficult to plan meets for everyone to enjoy and accomodate all the different personality types.

Additionally, everyone has a different agenda on what they want to do - instead of simply participating and enjoying the experience (whatever the function may be) everyone feels the need to put their two cents in (repeatedly) and complain that the scheduled event isn't what they want to do. Sometimes that reminded me of a child pouting or throwing a tantrum.

At this point, I think this is all I want to say...for now.

yes, you know firsthand how difficult it is to try and accomodate everyone's likes, as do i. you also know how much i truly appreciated the hard work and effort you put into coordinating these events and i understand why you had to step back.

i agree with a lot of your thoughts, because that's the impression i've seen over the years.



finally, this thread is done. i understand what chris was going for, but airing this out in this manner WAS NOT APPROPRIATE for both the club or this forum. this should have been resolved at a club meeting [not a meet, but an actual meeting, like we used to have to go over the affairs of the club] and NOT on a message board.

i do not expect a duplicate thread to be created and as i mentioned in the first place, this should have been taken offline.