Engine Build/Rebuild. Let's work together.

[Bufalo]

It does, but if you're looking to increase the redline by 4000 RPM, the LAST thing you'll want to do is increase the stroke. What you'd probably want to do is run a K8 or KF crank to DE stroke the engine. That, along with some overbore, would allow you to run at higher engine speeds.




From there you have to figure out what kind of camshafts are going to be effective at 10k+, figure out what sort of custom intake manifold is going to supply (2.5L * 10,000 rpm / 2 (one intake stroke per 2 revolutions) * 80% VE = ) 10,000 cubic liters of air every minute...


Once you've built a 10,000 rpm bottom end, then you've got LOTS of work to do to build a 10,000 power plant.



I'd love to see it though.

[KaedenKy]

well....

I think me and cyborg zero need to graduate so we each can build each type of motor

anyway if you want to stroke and be a big displacement high torque guy then i say you should go forced induction like tkt talked about up top.

If you want to stay n/a or nitrous i think a high reving set up would be more efficient and overall more fun simply we dont have enough displacement to see a gain from a bigger stroke 2.5 to a 2.7 or 2.9 isnt all that much but throw on forced induction and then you have a nice long stroke to get great torque number because air flow is taken care of by the blower.

On the other hand when you are n/a you need lots of cam and reving to get the air flow, but with a motor this small you cant get that at low rpm....so its up to you and pockets

damn do i wish some people would comment on this thread.

As for me i ordered some ze head/ cams and will be bugging cyborg about his manifold magic to see where i go

hopefully it takes me through school so then i can try some more things with this car.

As for reving lets say we took a stock ecu with no rev limiter....how high does our fuel mapping go before we explode. I am not talking on a stock engine i am saying on a slightly built thing like interprep did along with insane cam

[KaedenKy]

Stroking

Could anyone give a more techical description of what is involved for completeness.

I know you grind the crank to be smaller in diameter to allow the piston to travel down more, but i am interested in the complete description of the steps required to stroke an engine and is changed and what is needed new.

[EvilDave]

Originally posted by KaedenKy
Stroking

Could anyone give a more techical description of what is involved for completeness.

I saw this and was going to say something, but I figured I'll let someone else explain their technique.

[AJ1]

Originally posted by EvilDave
I saw this and was going to say something, but I figured I'll let someone else explain their technique.

LMAO

[Zoso142]

Don't ruin this thread, back to the topic....

[Jeff_Jeske]

No one is making a stroker kit and even so most stroker motors are notorious for breaking. The associated cost would be insane.

Resleaving a block....another huge grip of money and one seriously qualified shop required. Odds are downtime will be HUGE.

I would never do a rebuild again. I would get a KLZE. Then disassemble the top half.....do my own portmatching and polishing. Rework the heads with a tad more aggressive cam and bigger valves. Replace the headgaskets with oringed copper gastkets and then NITROUS the crap out of it within a reasonable RPM range. There is no reason to rev the crap out of our car.

You can build a monster motor but be prepared to replace the tranny.

Also keep in mind this is a 10 year old car now. Its hard for me to consider dropping 4-5k unrecoverable $$$ into a motor alone. Its cheaper to run a stock motor and spray a 75 shot of nitrous whenever you feel like it......4k in juice will last a very long time.

I am kinda kicking myself in the butt right now for dropping 2k on my rebuild.

[Zoso142]

I totally agree with you, I did the same thing.

$250 - Blown Engine
$350 - Rebuild kit
$150 - Head work
$200 - ZE pistons - used
$175 - Millenia Intake
$144 - Stiffer Valve Springs
$400 - Used/Damaged/Unstreetable Racing rams and shims that I'm not even using.
$300 - Fidanza Flywheel
$300 - CM III Clutch
$250 - ZE ECU

$2250+ - For this much I could of bought a ZE, NOS and redid the suspension. Live and Learn I guess

[SePHiRo]

Originally posted by Bufalo
It does, but if you're looking to increase the redline by 4000 RPM, the LAST thing you'll want to do is increase the stroke. What you'd probably want to do is run a K8 or KF crank to DE stroke the engine. That, along with some overbore, would allow you to run at higher engine speeds.




From there you have to figure out what kind of camshafts are going to be effective at 10k+, figure out what sort of custom intake manifold is going to supply (2.5L * 10,000 rpm / 2 (one intake stroke per 2 revolutions) * 80% VE = ) 10,000 cubic liters of air every minute...


Once you've built a 10,000 rpm bottom end, then you've got LOTS of work to do to build a 10,000 power plant.



I'd love to see it though.

What you refer to, is similar to what Gerry Sica (PRM) is working on. He is keeping stock bore but intends to rev to 10000rpm To do that (and make power up there) he is using a custom manifold and some custom cams a bit more aggressive than that interprep race cams. Compression # is pretty nutz too but I don't think he really wants people to know what his setup is going to be until its ready... in which case I may have written too much already

[Dubbed]

I don't see how you can be into cars and have a problem with an unrecoveralbe 5g's put into a motor. The thrill of knowing what you've done is worth it. Why save your money and leave it for everyone else when you die? Spend your money wisely and have as much fun as possible.

I would say do what nobody else does and build one He11 of a motor and have fun doing it. I've just spent 3g's on a VW aircooled motor that will put my 1500lb bug into the low 13's. Then I plan on putting about 5 or 6g's into a PGT.

Now to get back on topic...

So far I see that to build a strong yet powerfull motor for street driving you should leave the bottom end mostly stock. except for opening the #6 on the crank.
over bore it .040 or .060 and build ut the topend for lots of air flow. P&P the heads and have them benchflowed by a performance shop. A new HiPo Cam and reprogramed Computer.

Is there any other good info or Ideas anyone can come up with that would make for a good strong HiPo motor?

[dillinr]

Originally posted by cyborgzero

Also, too, MOST IMPORTANT: GET THEM TO FIND YOU SOME GOOD ROD BOLTS TO REPLACE THE STOCKERS! This cannot be said enough..

So, for now, it seems the mission critical issues before ANY of us make big hp still remain the:

1) rod connecting bolts
2) valvespring retainers
3) #6 crank oiler

Until these weak links are taken care of, we are all pissing up a rope as far as taking the stock motor to any real heights. The potential is there, but I see a pattern of these 3 problems occurring over and over.

Rob

I wanted to reiterate this part of what he has said, I haven't read the whole thread yet but this slaped me in the face big time. I too have experienced broken rod bolts from what I can tell. If you look at the bolts they sheared right below the threads. Why the taper down I don't know, some Mazda engineers great idea But that appears to be the culprit. Also upon dissasembly it was pretty apparent that the # 6 bearing had taken a bit more abuse than the others.

Laters
Ryan

[dillinr]

Something that wasn't stated so far has been at exactly what RPM do the valves start to float in a ZE? And furthermore are the springs in a ZE any stiffer than in a DE/03? They have the same built in rev limiter so I might assume no...

Currently I'm planning out a ZE build....What I'll definitely do:
P&P heads, IM
All the bolt ons (clutch, FW, MSD, I/E, Custom IRS Headers)
Shimmed oil pump
Heads shaved .030
50-75 wet shot

All that I can do pretty easy and cheap.

Possible:
Milennia/Crowler Rods
Forged higher comp Pistons (JE?)
or .040 stockers w/overbore (rod/piston combo instead of shaving heads for compression)
Upgraded bearings (really necessary?)
Stiffer valve springs/new retainers/keepers
Open up #6
New rod bolts/bolts all around.

Couple of Q's, are the new bolts really necessary with a complete rebuild? will the main bolts I pull out be re-usable without any loss in integrity? And what for the notoriously weak Rod bolts I've already dealt with?

Milennia Rods, I've heard .030 longer and now on this thread .030 longer. Neither is a problem since I won't be hitting a valve yet, but which is it...and what other problems might I encounter with the Milennia S rods...with them being taller is that going to cause interference with the heads at TDC?

Where do the ZE valves begin to float?

Upgraded bearings, are some stockers gonna hold up with racing every weekend or so and being daily driven?

Can I get away with 11:1 JE pistons on Crowler/Milennia rods, using pump gas, a 50 shot and the stock ECU? I've been warned of problems with the Stock ECU with anything over 10.5:1 comp.

Lastly, nobody has talked about the importance of breaking in an engine, the mileage and manner in which it is driven or even what oil to use to break it in. From my experience, break in a new engine with petrol oil for at least 500 miles seeing a wide variety of rpm ranges. For new cams idle at a high RPM for at least five mins before driving. Change the OIL! after the 500 miles, then after the next 500.

This is what I have researched, please give more feedback, or what is necessary on our particular application.

Laters
Ryan

[cyborgzero]

RODS RODS RODS!!! CHEAP!!

Okay, here is where I am at right now:

Rod substitutions:

Email or call for info.. We have a surprise for you...

[Wowo76]

Originally posted by dillinr
Something that wasn't stated so far has been at exactly what RPM do the valves start to float in a ZE? And furthermore are the springs in a ZE any stiffer than in a DE/03? They have the same built in rev limiter so I might assume no...

Currently I'm planning out a ZE build....What I'll definitely do:
P&P heads, IM
All the bolt ons (clutch, FW, MSD, I/E, Custom IRS Headers)
Shimmed oil pump
Heads shaved .030
50-75 wet shot

All that I can do pretty easy and cheap.

Possible:
Milennia/Crowler Rods
Forged higher comp Pistons (JE?)
or .040 stockers w/overbore (rod/piston combo instead of shaving heads for compression)
Upgraded bearings (really necessary?)
Stiffer valve springs/new retainers/keepers
Open up #6
New rod bolts/bolts all around.

Couple of Q's, are the new bolts really necessary with a complete rebuild? will the main bolts I pull out be re-usable without any loss in integrity? And what for the notoriously weak Rod bolts I've already dealt with?

Milennia Rods, I've heard .030 longer and now on this thread .030 longer. Neither is a problem since I won't be hitting a valve yet, but which is it...and what other problems might I encounter with the Milennia S rods...with them being taller is that going to cause interference with the heads at TDC?

Where do the ZE valves begin to float?

Upgraded bearings, are some stockers gonna hold up with racing every weekend or so and being daily driven?

Can I get away with 11:1 JE pistons on Crowler/Milennia rods, using pump gas, a 50 shot and the stock ECU? I've been warned of problems with the Stock ECU with anything over 10.5:1 comp.



Laters
Ryan

I'm in a similar situation as you. I am rebuilding my ZE as it needed a head job, and upon further inspection (mucho carbon deposits) I decided that i might as well rebuild the damned thing. I already have millenia s rods and will be ordering flat topped pistons from Weisco to keep my 10:1 cr.

I plan on using a standard rebuild kit from flatlander racing for a millenia as the intake manifold is square ported, just as the ZE is. My other reason for using the millenia kit is because I am 90% sure that millenia heads and ZE heads are one and the same, meaning that the HLA's SHOULD be the same size. I don't want to run into dimension problems with valvetrain components as JDM valvetrain components are different from USDM counterparts.

I am going to send my heads off to be cleaned and maybe have some mild porting done. I am at a crossroads with the valves. I am probably going to have all of the valves replaces, but I am not sure if I should go all stainless or just get stokers and have them coated. This engine will see a mild shot of wet NO2 in the future and then boosted much later on (provided i still have interest).

Aside from the valve issue i am pretty sure that there should not be any issues w/ using millenia s rods with the correctly matched pistons.

[Jeff_Jeske]

For the record I am not against putting 4k into motor as long as you will see 4k worth of gains .....and you wont. A KLZE is $800. You pick up 30HP and get a low mileage motor.

As for valves...yes this was a biggy for me too. More so because I melted one on the dyno. Stock valves are $12 each and Ferrea are $25 each. I went with ferrea but in the back of my mind I know the stock valves are very high quality and would have been plenty good. My advice to you is: If you getting aftermarket valves get bigger valves. I am still pissed off that I got stock size exhaust valves. The first thing the guy doing the valve job said is "Wow you should have gotten oversized valves there are lots of room to play with the head and bowls".

http://www.jeffjeske.com/valves.html
http://www.jeffjeske.com/heads.html