Engine Build/Rebuild. Let's work together.

[Bufalo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Promise:

Originally posted by cyborgzero
Yeah, but the insane mail service opened it and took the retainers out

OMFG... I want my damned 37 cents back.

[cyborgzero]

Well, I know they watch my mail very dilligently which is why I usually tell ppl to ship stuff UPS.. I have my mail opened all the time.

Okay, next part of the build is to look into block reinforcement and "hot honing"..

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/82438/

Here is a good tech article on something that everyone should DEMAND be done on their car if you want to be assured that the motor will hold up under the enhanced stresses you will be placing on it.

Rob

[cyborgzero]

Here is yet another idea that is interesting when considering a rebuild:

http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA...rodslength.cfm

This basically says that longer rods are ideal because they cost about the same and reduce wear on the engine..

Also, too, they will not affect the compression, since the total stroke is still the same..

Makes me wonder if this would be the hot ticket to reduce wear in the rods, increase breathing, and gain some power due to the fact that the ignition force is able to work on the rod and deliver power to the crank for a longer period of time.

This would also allow a person to gain some VE AND would allow the motor to make more HP throughout the RPM range, thereby eliminating the need to bring the RPMs up to compensate.

The longer time at TDC also helps eliminate detonation, so it would be a GREAT mod for FI and nitrous.

Rob

[Zoso142]

From talking with Interprep again, the only time they have ever seen the retainers breaking was because of valve float. After installing the stiffer valve springs it hasn't been an issue. So the only problem I see is when you change your ZE Intake valve springs for the ones that are stiffer you will need the DE retainers because the ZE retainers will be too big. And no there is no problem using the smaller valve spring/retainer (DE) with the ZE lifter.

[Black93GT]

i found these CNC rods on flatlanders site. their priced at 989 for the v6. Anyone quality aftermarket rods at a cheaper price?

Next.... valve springs..... what options are currently available?

[Black93GT]

Just short of sounding like a raging nerd i need my calculator. LOL

Anyhow here are the latest thought/question coming from the feble grey matter between my ears.

The KJ rods are considered stronger over our KL rods. They are also .020 longer than ours. With this change in length the piston acceleration changes slightly. But just maybe the change in rod length could eek out a hp, a lb of torque or possibly modify the piston acceleration just enough to reduce some of the stress on the rod.

This might not be worth the brain power used to compute the diffrence, but its still food for thought.

[Mike Baxter]

Originally posted by cyborgzero
No, BUT, they have the measurements, which is a good thing.

I can just copy their measurements..

I will prlly make mine out of either stainless or 4130... Its VERY easy on the mill I have, about a 10 minute job per, and that is setup time mostly.

You are looking at at LEAST $300, and that comes out to 15 bux each.. Thats not a bad price honestly, and it will lower the valvetrain weight which isn't a bad thing either. I would say it will prlly go up to around $400-500 for our cars, since they are always more expensive.

Dunno.. I might be able to trick my cnc machine into milling titanium by overcorrecting backlash.. I know the motor is strong enough, just the table motors might need an upgrade.

Rob

Keep us posted on these retainers as i have had one of my retainters in my DE Head split in half as Greg's did as well. I now have a set of ZE heads that i want to have larger valves done with the stronger retainers and a 3 angle valve job with slight stiffer springs! I also have Mike S. FI (Supercharged) Cams to install! Would porting the ZE heads be more beneficial with running the boost? I'd like to see more information on finding the stiffer springs as well! This thread is really great

[Ben_vb]

stroker motor

I would really like to see some one have one of our cranks ofset ground to stroke the motor out, I know its more of an old muscle car thing, but there still is no replacement for displacement, The onoly problem I can forsee is finding the proper length rod-piston combonation.

[KaedenKy]

Stroking is bad

Why do you think old muscle cars red line at 5k.

This motor can be stroked to 2.9 and for the small .4 displacement gain you get

ALOT MORE WEAR ON THE MOTOR LITTLE POWER AND AND AND IT COSTS.

you would be much better spending on the heads and reving to 8k than stroking the motor and ruining its short stroked design

[Koop]

Originally posted by Mike Baxter
Keep us posted on these retainers as i have had one of my retainters in my DE Head split in half as Greg's did as well. I now have a set of ZE heads that i want to have larger valves done with the stronger retainers and a 3 angle valve job with slight stiffer springs! I also have Mike S. FI (Supercharged) Cams to install! Would porting the ZE heads be more beneficial with running the boost? I'd like to see more information on finding the stiffer springs as well! This thread is really great

Actual porting on the heads is still up in the air it seams. NO one to my knolege has flowbenched a head for porting and was willing to release the info! Alistar did it i know but who knows what he took out? As far as stiffer springs.... are you planning on reving high? I haven't found any real info on the powerband of mikes supercharge grind cams. They probably wouldn't be needed if your not going above stock rev limitations. I want an update on the retainers too though! I want a set for under 300 bucks though!

[cyborgzero]

Okay, here is the checklist for CZT:

1) test the rods with 10mm arp rod bolts

2) build the flowbench and flow the heads and IM

3) mill stainless or 4130 retainers.. I won't be doing titanium since its too hard on tools and prlly not needed for our apps anyway..

So, Jeff is going to send some spare rods to test, then I have to finish building my flowbench and get a few baseline readings..

Over all, it should be very informative for all once its done.

Rob

[Koop]

when do we need it by? tomorrow today now! j/k I'm super ecited to hear about your progress cybor! I cant wait! I think steal is the better option for the retainors as well as it will cut coasts! What are your goals for flowbenching?

Another topic. I want to hear some more ideas about the oil starvation problem. We all know to shimm the pump and can open up #6 a mm. But what else? Is a top feed system actualy reasonable? It seems like a good idea but how possible/reliable would it be? Does any one know exactly what alistar did on there engine?

[cyborgzero]

top oilers are really only if you have an extreme motor that might see alot of heat and wear and it also tends to cut down on detonation by helping cool the heads.

Its fairly easy to to actually, but it will increase crankcase pressure in the valve covers so its a good idea to put on big breathers filters and vent to the outside if you go with top oilers.

As far as flow, I am figuring we could prlly see a 20 percent increase all around... On the heads, I would be happy with about 10 percent.

When I do the top oilers, btw, I will prlly install an accusump and use a 12v oil pump to run the top squirters to make sure there is no lean condition.

Rob

[Dan [Sac]]

My two cents on some issues:

*head porting will yield *some* power, but not much. My heads were done by a cylinder head specialist at a racing shop and the best they could squeeze out of them was a 10% increase in flow (9.6 to be exact). They got each port to flow within 0.5% of each other. Everyone was impressed by how well they were designed to function in OEM trim.

*Interprep also recommended standard retainers as long as springs were upgraded - also, the Interprep springs are progressive, the stockers linear (I think I may have the last one backwards, but I ain't digging for the notes now)

*biggest wear items in the head were the keepers, all of which showed significant shoulder shear. Second worst were the valve guides, severely worn on a well maintained 30k mile KL03. Replaced the keepers with standard ones, and the guides with bronze units.

*$989 is cheap for the rod set (assuming it comes with quality harware like ARP). My Crower mid-weight billet rods were $1,250.

*The KL03 IM SUCKS. I picked up 4 tenths of a second (15.0 to 14.6) in the quarter mile just by bolting on a ZE IM. I know my ported heads magnified the gain, but it clearly demonstrated that the biggest airflow restriction was the stock IM. This was on a standard 60mm TB with headers and exhaust.

*increase valve size at the expense of velocity - my engine retained the stock valve sizes (both I & E) but replaced with Manley SS units

*knife edging is practically useless in a daily driver - you'll increase clutch wear and loads on the transmission. The baffle is outstanding in keeping the crank out of the oil.

*our oil pan sucks - by far the number one enemy of the KL series is oiling, and the oil pan size certainly does not help - I bet a better oil pan design (with higher capacity) would be more beneficial than most other oiling upgrades.

*DO balance the rotating assembly (flywheel included) once the build is done - our cranks are strong, but they do bend - mine was off 8 thousandths as a result of a spun rod bearing prior to the rebuild and had to be extensively repaired (scored journal + bend).

[cyborgzero]

Originally posted by Dan [Sac]
My two cents on some issues:
*The KL03 IM SUCKS. I picked up 4 tenths of a second (15.0 to 14.6) in the quarter mile just by bolting on a ZE IM. I know my ported heads magnified the gain, but it clearly demonstrated that the biggest airflow restriction was the stock IM. This was on a standard 60mm TB with headers and exhaust.

Yep.. This is where I have been focusing my efforts lately, since after some preliminary flow numbers it has shown itself to fall FAR short of its potential.

As far as only 10% gain, well, that is what I figured would be the best you could get.. BTW, was that with ZE heads or DE? Be specific.

Rob