Engine Build/Rebuild. Let's work together.

[Wowo76]

Originally posted by Jeff_Jeske
For the record I am not against putting 4k into motor as long as you will see 4k worth of gains .....and you wont. A KLZE is $800. You pick up 30HP and get a low mileage motor.

As for valves...yes this was a biggy for me too. More so because I melted one on the dyno. Stock valves are $12 each and Ferrea are $25 each. I went with ferrea but in the back of my mind I know the stock valves are very high quality and would have been plenty good. My advice to you is: If you getting aftermarket valves get bigger valves. I am still pissed off that I got stock size exhaust valves. The first thing the guy doing the valve job said is "Wow you should have gotten oversized valves there are lots of room to play with the head and bowls".

http://www.jeffjeske.com/valves.html
http://www.jeffjeske.com/heads.html

I thought about just grabbing another ZE - but lets face it - you never know what ur gonna get. I got this ZE and it ran fine for some time...till it started blowing oil past the valve stem seals. After tearing the engine down and looking at how much carbon was built up, I decided to just go ahead and rebuild the engine. Mind you I most likely will be rebuilding it myself, aside for the vavletrain (although I could get away with doing it myself). This is the cost breakdown that I'll be looking at...

Rebuild kit - ~$400
cleaning - ~$100

I have a set og Millenia S pistons that I got ($350) and weisco quoted me $550 for mattching 10:1 cr pistons.

I could port and polish the heads for an extra $200 - $300

At most I would be dropping a lil under $1800 for a built ZE.

I don't think that's bad at all.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Head work = $$$

If you are starting with a KLZE and just replacing gaskets thats not really a rebuild in my mind and I would give you the thumbs up for that action.

Heck I suggest pulling and decking the heads, replacing the valve seals, and copper coating the headgaskets right from the get go.

Its all this talk about resleaving, oversized pistons, stroking, boiling out the crank, bla bla bla that is really not gonna do much except empty your wallet.

When rebuilding a motor people tend to get spend crazy. Even I did it....its nice to have bragging rights (ceramic coated pistons, ferrea valves, motor bored 20 over) but towards my goal that was all COMPLETELY WASTED MONEY. Hell even the $70 I spent on head bolts was wasted because I have yet to find one that has been streched. Its very very easy to blow less than $100 on "lots of little somethings" and pretty soon its a grip of cash.


Make a plan.

What do you want from your car? (Boost, High power NA, Nitrous)

Determine what you NEED and what you can afford!

Example - why would you need new pistons? Has anyone ever destroyed a stock piston from power alone?

Be true to yourself - There are stock boosted motors with over 300WHP. If you want more than that then start looking at the tranny because its a weak POS.

[Wowo76]

Jeff raises some very valid points.

By personal nature..I have a tendency to be anal about some things. Every since I've gotten my car, I wanted to be boosted.... I have a t3 sitting in my room, some millenia S injectors, some millenia s rods I got for cheap. I want to have a boosted vehicle within the next year. And starting with a build motor seemed to be the best start.

Some things I could do w/o - titatnium retainers and valves. Even the porting I could live w/o. But my mind is thinking..."if the heads are off, go ahead and port and polish....sinces the block is disassembled and you have some rods...through in some forged pistons"

What I want my end result to be is a reliable, built ZE that will handle a moderate amount of FI.

[KaedenKy]

copper coating the head gasket

could you elaborate. My heads are off right now and are getting decked a little.

With that i might as well copper coat it if its a simple process.

[Jeff_Jeske]

I used permatex copper coat as a sealant on both sides of my head gaskets.

It can be purchased at NAPA for $6 and comes in a spray can.

[dillinr]

Originally posted by Jeff_Jeske
I used permatex copper coat as a sealant on both sides of my head gaskets.

It can be purchased at NAPA for $6 and comes in a spray can.

I'd assume the benefit of that being a better/stronger seal?

How does I contact Weisco for some quotes?

Laters
Ryan

[cyborgzero]

Originally posted by Wowo76

Some things I could do w/o - titatnium retainers and valves. .

If you are boosting, why bother with port and polish?

Just round out and polish the combustion chambers, match them, and let that be that.. You can do that YOURSELF for NOTHING!

But, ZEs.. man, what can I say.. The valve clips wear into the retainers...

At *least* get all new stock retainers and clips.. The OEM clips on ZEs have burrs on them from all accounts that wear into the spring retainers, and its worth the hour or so it takes to swap them out.

Rods? Yeah, i would say change em if you can or at least take the rods in to have the rod bolts swapped to 10mm by 1.0mm pitch Arp Bolts.. I have a set ready to go right now and I don't suspect any trouble until over 400whp.

Pistons? Well, if 700whp doesn't mean anything to you, I guess you need them.

The following things should allow you to see 400whp consistently, safely, AND inexpensively:

1) rod modification for 10mm by 1.0mm

2) new retainers and valve clips *stock*

3) floating wristpins and spiralocks

4) MAYBE o-ringing the block.. it can be done fairly cheaply by any machine shop

5) better oil pump

6) opening the oiler holes in the crank

THATS IT!

Anything else, esp. if you are boosting, and you are just wasting money.

In the sims, all these nifty little headworking, bigger valves, etc etc etc didn't do much as far as HP was concerned. You aren't working with a big block V8 or some rotten toyota with a big edgy intake port! Our heads are about as good as most aftermarket V8 heads!

Word has it that our motor was designed off of the TAG Porsche/McLaren V6 they ran back in the 80s, and, if this is as true as my sources, we should have NO problem with reliability given just some very simple mods.

If you are going to go boost just leave your car alone and build for *durability*. Performance can be made up with boost. Otherwise you are wasting money that could go to much cooler stuff.

[cyborgzero]

Originally posted by dillinr

Milennia Rods, I've heard .030 longer and now on this thread .030 longer. Neither is a problem since I won't be hitting a valve yet, but which is it...and what other problems might I encounter with the Milennia S rods...with them being taller is that going to cause interference with the heads at TDC?

You will be fine, but, when you are building a performance motor that will see high rpms consistently you need more deck clearance IE a slightly shorter rod..

Otherwise, your rod and crank will flex slightly and you will smack the piston into the squish areas on the heads and you won't be too happy with the results, anything from ring problems to skirt damage to a spun bearing.. Sound familiar anyone?

But, if you want to get around this, you can make an angled squish and radius it into the CC to increase crossflow and clearance.

I honestly suspect a few Millenia rod users have had pistons hit the deck and go boom over this already and never did figure out why.

Rob

[Wowo76]

I am a lil concerned with the 0.03 increase in length of the Millenia S rod. I know Geck0 has this combo in the block that he is building. I would assume that the overall piston + rod length is the same as the stock setup. So why would the crank flex anymore than stock causing the pistons to hit the heads?

Also where can I get a set of ARP bolts to repl;ace the rod bolts?

[dillinr]

I think he means that the crank is gonna flex a little reguardless of what pistons you have in there... it just brings the piston closer to the head with the slightly longer rod

Laters
Ryan

[halfriceboy]

are you guys sure that the millenia S miller cycle rods are .03 longer than the stock KLDE rods? i've always heard that they are the same length, just forged.

[Wowo76]

I also thought the same.

[Wowo76]

I guess expereince is the best method of teaching.

I finally got down to tearing down the short block.

Everything looked fine down to the cross hatching marks still visible on the cyclnder walls. I took a look at the crank itself - no scoring or nicks. I paid special attention to the #6 oil passage and corresponding rod and rod bearing.

There was SOME wear opposed to little or no wear at all on the other rod bearings. The oil pump had hard caked oil/carbon and as expected, the oil passaged had a nice think layer of crud lining the walls.

I have no doubt that my engine was a low milage ZE, but it was probabley sitting either upsidedown or on it's side for a VERY long time for all of that oil to build up the way it did.

After giving it some thought and looking at the condition of the pistions and rods and bearings. I don't think millenia S rods are in order the stock roods look more than sufficent. If I am to do anything, I would just coat the pistion tops and maybe the skirts. I'm still not sold on drilling out the #6 oil passage, I think a slight bump in a new oil pump is sufficent. I still may drill out the oil passage yet...still haven't made a desicion.

As far as the vavlvetrain...all new stock parts will be going in. I've been tossing the idea of coating the exhaust valves...but I don't see any benfit being realized in other's boosted or NO2 setups.

I am DEFINETELY getting some studs to replace the rod bolts. I think they are barely suffecient for stock setup.


Now the hard part is finding a closeby shop in Jersey to boil out the block and clean my heads. So far I've only been able to fine one in Jamesburg...which is about a 60 min drive from my place.

[Jeff_Jeske]

I researched the new cap studs thing.....its gonna get pricey four you.....I had the entire rod, cap, and bolt shotpeened but I dont really think that does squat.....at least it was cheap.

Torque specs on those are critical!

[dillinr]

Great, now how much are they?